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Thread: Starting Problems Trouble Shooting Guide

  1. #1
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    Starting Problems Trouble Shooting Guide

    I put this video together after seeing the format on an RC forum. They had used it to poke fun at a troublesome and illogical poster. That is not my intent here but I did hope to have a little fun with it and help people understand non starting trouble shooting at the same time. I posted it in the Falco section and Hank thought it would be a good starting point for a starting system sticky here.

    There are many threads about starting problems but no sticky here till now. There are also many charging system threads but again none here. So lets use this thread primarily for starting problem diagnosis but also for basic charging system trouble shooting and basic repair. There is already a good sprag clutch thread so we don't need to repeat any of that here.

    I'll try and compile a list of other threads on both starting and charging problems. If any one has saved links to any of their favorites, let me know and I will add them to the list in the first post.

    I've been meaning to write up a good check list on starting system diagnosis and will try to add that later.

    For now enjoy the video. Understand that it was meant to be fun and so is not as thorough as I would have liked. I didn't want to spend too much time on it.

    As with anything else I post here ask questions as much as you like and point out any errors and anything you think should be added. This first post will be a work in progress and I will update it over time. Send me links to pertinent articles and technical information and I will include them.

    Also if anyone can show me how to embed this video I would appreciate it.

    http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/1138..._Won%27t_Start

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    Battery - It all starts here

    The first thing with any slow cranking problems is to check all battery cable connections. This includes the main frame ground connection, battery connections, starter relay connections, starter cable connection, and even the starter mounting. Any of these can be points of high resistance. If the starter bolts are tight that should be enough but some have found added cranking power by running a cable directly from the battery ground terminal to the starter mounting bolt. In normal circumstances this shouldn't be necessary but in corrosive environments it might be helpful. Early bikes had an cable connecting from the frame ground to the engine. This was eliminated with the 04 models but again, if a solid engine ground is not certain, an additional cable might be helpful.

    Test the battery. The only way to know for sure if the battery is up to the task is a load test. This should be done after a full charge and rest period.

    Without a load tester you can do an improvised load test by measuring the battery voltage with a volt meter as you crank the starter for 5-10 seconds. Do this with the key off. Energize the starter directly from the battery through the relay connector. My bike with a good 12ah battery holds 10.6 volts. Much below 10 volts indicates a weak battery.

    Other problems such as starter drag, poor battery cable connections, or a failing relay can skew the results.

    http://autorepair.about.com/library/.../aa101604c.htm
    http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html
    http://www.yuasabatteries.com/faqs.php?action=1&id=30

    ----------------

    Fuses

    Check all fuses especially the two 30 amp main power fuses near the battery.

    -----------------

    Fall Sensor (tip-over sensor)

    This little box mounted near the battery, which feels and sounds like there is something broken loose inside, kills the engine in the event of a fall. People frequently get it mounted upside down when fiddling around with the battery. NO START appears on the display when it gets tripped and the bike won't start till it is reset. The rubber mount has UP and an arrow molded on it. Make sure it is mounted correctly. The bike will run with the sensor completely disconnected but EFI will flash continuously on the display. A resistor can replace the sensor to stop the flashing but a working sensor is a better option.

    ------------------

    Starter Button Circuit

    Pretty basic DC electricity here. The starter button provides power to energize the starter relay. With a test light you can check that power is reaching the relay connector red wires when the starter button is pushed.

    --------------

    Starter relay

    There is nothing really wrong with the standard relay but it does not provide much of a safety margin and can be burned up easily during extended cranking sessions. The Yamaha relay no. 4KD-81940-00 has proven to be a good replacement but there many other options outside the motorcycle world.

    A basic check of the relay function can start with a test light. With the key on push the starter button and you should get power to the red wires at the small connector. You can check the general condition of the internal contacts by measuring the voltage drop with a volt meter. Connect to the threaded terminals. You should be reading battery voltage. Push the starter button and the voltage should drop to near zero. 0.1-0.2 volts are normal readings. Much higher than that tells you the relay has resistance across the contacts and it needs to be replaced.

    Starter Relay Mod: Futura w/ Ford Relay

    ---------------

    Starter motor

    These are pretty bullet proof. One known issue is a loose cable connection which will overheat the stud. If the cable stud is rusted this is a good sign that this heating has occurred.

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    Charging system

    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=105574

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    Fuel Pump

    To run the fuel pump has to work of course. The pump should run for three seconds after turning the key on. This function is controlled by a timer in the ECU. If the kill button is in the off position the pump will not be energized at key on but the timer starts. If you turn the key on and then arm the kill switch before the timer quits the pump will run for the remaining time. Pumps fail from corrosion due to water in gas. If the bike sits a lot the corrosion can lock the pump and you will not hear it run at key on.

    To trouble shoot this disconnect the electrical connector and check for voltage with a volt meter at key on. There has been a fair amount of trouble with the through tank fitting that carries power to the pump. Bad solder joints have lead to open circuits for several. You will need to remove the fuel pump assembly from the tank to test for this possibility.

    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=131331
    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=133428
    http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/s...d.php?t=133844

  2. #2
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Loved it
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch. EBC 320mm brake discs
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  3. #3
    apriliaforum expert Precis's Avatar
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    Bloody Brilliant!
    Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

  4. #4
    apriliaforum expert BigSteve's Avatar
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    Moral of this story, buy a volt meter and sodder your wires together, otherwise your mille will price you off...LOL

    (2003 Infinity Blue Capo) - Leo Vince x3 Cans/K&N Air filter/Snorkle-less/Catfish Map/ZX-6R FH016 Mosphet Rectifier/Front Coils re-located/Metal Fuel CRC Fixings/Brown Connector-less/Hyperpro Springs F&R/Rear Hugger/R&G Heated Grips/Krauser Alloy Panniers/Givi G45 Box/BMW GS1150 HandGuards with Touratech Extensions/Kawasaki Z1000 Mirrors/CREE LED's/Wilks Raid Rep Sump Guard & aprilia Crash Bars + Lots of Stickers..

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  5. #5
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Will this be focusing on no-crank or cranking no-start?
    No Matter Where You Are, There You Go!

  6. #6
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    The focus it the starting system but any information or a checklist for cranking and not starting is welcome as well. Links will include your relay thread as well.

  7. #7
    apriliaforum expert RossGuzzi's Avatar
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    I have been wondering lately if there might be a problem with my starter. Thanks for that bit of info. I will check it.
    Mine only does the slight 1/2 crank then dash reset when she is warm to hot. Never when cold. That got me thinking it could be starter related, cos I have done all the wiring mods.

    Will check all connections again.

    Good thread! Thanks kzmille.
    Tuono Racing + KTM 990 Adventure =

  8. #8
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    That is typically a sign of a weak battery. My 01 did that one time when the original battery was 4-5 years old. I replaced the battery and it has never done it again.

    Something that is easy to forget is that a batteries cranking power is diminished when hot as well as when cold. The batteries get pretty hot in these bikes during a long ride.

  9. #9
    apriliaforum expert RossGuzzi's Avatar
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    It is only 1 year old. A Motobatt. Sort of a Deca.

    Might get it load tested anyway.

    Cheers.
    Tuono Racing + KTM 990 Adventure =

  10. #10
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossGuzzi View Post
    It is only 1 year old. A Motobatt. Sort of a Deca.

    Might get it load tested anyway.

    Cheers.
    Due to better compression when hot and higher resistance in the starter (warmed up my the header) it can be more difficult to crank.

    Check as you said all connections from the battery all the way to the starter.
    Remove and clean as they should be spotless.
    Do the same for the ground.
    What is your charging voltage?
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch. EBC 320mm brake discs
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  11. #11
    apriliaforum expert RossGuzzi's Avatar
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    I would tell you what that is, but as a electrical dumbass, i dont know how to check with a multimeter.
    I have thought this could be a thread in itself !

    Dumbass`s guide to using a multi meter.

    Blew one up once testing a power point.........
    Tuono Racing + KTM 990 Adventure =

  12. #12
    apriliaforum expert deefred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RossGuzzi View Post
    I would tell you what that is, but as a electrical dumbass, i dont know how to check with a multimeter.
    I have thought this could be a thread in itself !

    Dumbass`s guide to using a multi meter.

    Blew one up once testing a power point.........
    Tons on info on the web.
    Here is just one link http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Multimeter
    2001 RST Futura in stream Silver.
    Mods: Modified Öhlins fork from mille R, EBC brake discs, HEL front brakelines, Carbon RS 250 front fender, Wiring mod for charging. Engine related:05 map, Iridium plugs, tuneboy, derestriced intake, old mille airboot, staintunes exhaust. Lambda bung hardbrazed in the "breadbox". Öhlins mille R rear shock with 110N/mm spring and the integrated hydraulic preload adjuster. LED Voltmeter installed inside the dash for monitoring charging. Duc 999 radial m/c for brake and clutch. EBC 320mm brake discs
    NWS hugger. Equipment: Famsa tankbag,
    CBR 600 -07 MOSFET R&R FH008EE providing stable 14.4 - 14.5 V (with my wiring mod). Daytona heated grips with mccoi pwm controller and automatic chain oiler

  13. #13
    apriliaforum expert RossGuzzi's Avatar
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    Search the web..........thanks, I should know better !
    Tuono Racing + KTM 990 Adventure =

  14. #14
    apriliaforum prov-nov tim62465's Avatar
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    I could watch those Sat morning cartoons ALL day long!

  15. #15
    apriliaforum Junkie shadowblaster's Avatar
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    My 04 factory has just started to do the slow cranking. I am finding it frustrating, I had the death by yellow wire issue, which I striped and changed the wire and connectors. i replaced the battery also for a 14amp Motobat which fired my baby so much better than ever, but now and not on every occasion but particularly when hot I get the half crank then stops and then fires up. Battery is always showing 13.5v after a run and 14v+ returning on tick over. I replaced the starter solenoid last year after that failed. So now I am looking for a bad earth I guess.
    Since owning a RSV I suffer with OCD
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    2001 R Factory Track bike
    Too many mods to list here

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