TSS-RS500GP..........(round 3).....cylinder problems?

[smads]

Well if you can have stonking power down below and up top why would you not want that!

Whole idea is to have best of both...small or large engine......

[stroker crazy]

Calvin - I couldn't find the portmap for the TSS motor on the CPI website; could you post a link or send a PM?

Crazy

[twostrokeshop]

Calvin is right - it's the 21st century and modern two-stroke bike riders want the advancements in technology and rideability that are available in this day and age. Nobody would dream of engineering a new four-stroke bike engine with an OHV pushrod design; and so there's no reason for stroker enthusiasts in 2012 to want to go back to how two-stroke bikes were before Yamaha brought out the RD350 YPVS way back in 1983.

Still, I'll allow that a non-powervalve fun bike is a ton of fun ... providing the port timing is not too wild.

But if the porting is as you would want it for a 500cc two-stroke road bike, i.e. to make that magic 100HP, there's no way in the world that a non-PV engine in this state of tune would be any kind of a practical ride.

As smads will tell us (who has a TSS500 engine in a modified LC chassis but with PVs locked open - soon to be fixed though), it's a drag having to wind up through the revs when the engine's bogged down, and damn explosive when it hits the pipe. This is not what anyone really wants in a street bike, when in this day and age it's possible to have the power chime in a lot lower down the rev range - making the whole thing so much more rideable. I don't think anything will be achieved by board members posting the fors and againsts of PV engine vs. non-PV engine - at least not when the conversation is about engineering a 100HP road-burner. Powervalves are needed, period.

This is the Aprilia RS250 Forum for heavens' sake - and the RGV/RS250 engines are very much a case in point when it comes to needing powervalves when port timing is wild. Nobody in their right mind could conceive of trying to ride an RGV or RS250 with PVs locked open - at least not for long. And anyone who has tried this will confirm that the bike in this configuration is a total dog.

[2gofast]

Calvin - I couldn't find the portmap for the TSS motor on the CPI website; could you post a link or send a PM?

As this is my first attempt at posting a ".pdf" file to this site, I am unsyre how the site is setup to display them, (they will either be a link to be downloaded or they may show on the screen....idk)
Here are the portmaps that I have on filefor the "standard" 4mill Cheetah, the 4mill ServalCub/Serval-Wampus, and the TSS 4mill.
Port layout for CPI-7358-115 Cheetah Cyl.pdf
Port layout for CPI-SW7258-115 Serval_Wampus.pdf
Port layout for CPI-7358-115 TSS-Cheetah Cyl.pdf

[twostrokeshop]

We're steadily working through the issues and making this engine installation work.

This is how the front engine mount was, which I never liked - as it relied too much on the engine torsion bars to resist the engine yawing in the frame.
Without the torsion bars, the engine was free to twist about its mounts, and of course if this was allowed to happen, the drive chain would get thrown.




This is what I've just fitted to a customer's bike - pic below. Anyone who's ever had an RZ or a Banshee will know the frames have steel mounting lugs that the vibe-isolating washers butt up against on the thrust sides of the engine front and rear. This application needs the same sort of attention, and then some (which is why the engine torsion bars are so heavy-duty.)






This pic shows the old setup at top, and the new setup at bottom.

[twostrokeshop]

Here are some pics of the new engine torsion bar setup, which was engineered by Jim Hinshaw of Fast From The Past - http://www.fastfromthepast.com - and it's a damn fine job too, thank you very much Jim.

As you can see, on the engine side there are very beefy elastomer rod ends which of course are needed to isolate the chassis from the engine.




On the chassis side, a spherical rod end is bolted to a very stout mounting block, which is much
stronger than the original bent steel bracket:


One thing is for sure, and that's if Jim designs and tests something, it's a very thorough job.

Jim is also producing a new batch of engine cradle kits, which will have a crossmember between the two frame tubes for
reinforcement. I will post pics of these on here when they have been finished and tested and approved.

I owe a great debt of gratitude to Jim. He has been a staunch supporter of this project, even when the chips were down.

Fortunately now it's possible for Jim to make changes and improvements where they are needed, and that is also an indication of
how this project has changed. It's now a truly collaborative effort, with people actually talking to each other and discussing the
best ways to go about things.

The end result, I hope, will be the availability of improved parts/systems for the venerable Yamaha twin engine as well as the
sorting of big-bore variants in the Aprilia RS250 chassis. And as Calvin says, in other bikes too.

Two pics of the mounting block on its own:

[2gofast]

....all I really wanted to do was convey the utter frustration of customers who have waited 3 years plus for this.....

I apologize for being so "aggressive" in my reply to you, as I read the "frustration" as being more confrontational than it would seem you intended it to be. As I said in one of my more long-winded earlier posts.....I do not have all of the answers, but there are enough people involved that we should at least be able to start getting the answers to "some" of the questions....and then fix at least those problems.
I have added the Aprilia forum to my list of things to check into EVERY morning before getting dragged "kicking and screaming" into the latest crisis which is most business' which are operating in today's economy. I have not gotten either an RS or an RZ in the shop yet.....but both are in the works and I hope to have some pieces to work with shortly.
I hope everyone can hang on with us just a little longer.

[twostrokeshop]

I recently uploaded a 'starter' page for those of us who are fitting the Ignitech Race ECU, here:

http://www.twostrokeshop.com/IGNITEC...2012_MARCH.htm

There's not a lot up there just yet, just the basics for starting off such as how to firstly establish communication with the black box, how to check your base timing and how to enter your basic ignition curve.

When I get a chance I will add notes/pics on how to set up the powervalve servo motor in the Ignitech software so that it's spot-on aligned at the top and bottom limits of travel. It's dead easy to do.

Feel free to shoot with any questions, or send through your own notes you'd like added to the page - or *erk* corrections. I'm no expert on these systems - but I figure that since my level of knowledge of them is basic, perhaps I'm a good 'ability test mule' because if I can fathom it, anyone can! I've no doubt there are forum members who are advanced users, and I welcome their input!

Pics below show the basics of fitting the Ignitech Race to the RS250:





The stator we have for the Yamaha engine plugs straight into the RS250 wiring loom,
and you can either use one of the RS250's two trigger sensors, which of course is
plug and play, (remembering of course to use the corresponding coil outputs for either
the front or rear cylinder's trigger sensor) or we can supply a stator with a new Yamaha
type trigger sensor which has the RS250 type plug, so that it's also a plug and play affair.



The new stator we are using is the same type as fitted to the Aprilia RS250/RGV -
i.e. all its windings are charging coils, unlike the earlier type stators fitted to RD/RZs
and Banshees, which relied on a separate cluster of high-voltage CDI windings to
feed into the CDI. (We have fitted this stator to the RD/RZ500 as well.)



The ignition coil is a twin coil, it's the same dimensions as the
RD/RZ350 YPVS/Banshee, i.e. 90mm mounting hole spacings:



Just a pic of the new rotor, stator and trigger sensor:

[stroker crazy]

Thanks for the portmaps Calvin.

Crazy

[peterz84]

Calvin/Steve, if you need a chassis or two, I have a couple of rs 250s and a bunch of rz 350s you are more than welcome to, keep them as long as you need to get this thing sorted out. I won't be riding them much this year anyhow, got bit by the motard bug and want to put some time in on them.

Pete

[ghezzi]

Gee Pete, there is only one thing more 'fully sic' than playing kneecapusgonwestus, and that's going sideways at the same time.

[smads]

Great to see renewed things happening....

Steve any chance you would do those torsion bars for the rz and rdlc ..?..

Cheers

[twostrokeshop]

I've come up with a possible way to convert the existing Trinity Racing PV pods to servo actuation, as shown in the pic below. It's dead simple so might just
work in the real world. It involves cannibalising the Yamaha Autolube two-stroke oil pump pulley and pulley hub and turning the assembly upside-down so as to convert linear cable motion into vertical powervalve blade movement, by cam action.




I should explain why on earth I am talking about modding the Trinity system. Well firstly, the RS500 application has very little room for a radiator - and the existing Trinity pods, with a 50mm protrusion from the cylinder's PV boss, is just too much. As it was with the original servo-actuated PV pods, there was still too much protrusion, and although it was less than the Trinity setup, at 35mm; by the time the grub screws and Nyloc adjusters were in place, and the huge pulley, we were no better off clearance-wise from the radiator. And this application absolutely has to have radiator cooling fans, which would be a devil to fit with either of these PV systems.



Calvin and I have already ruled out the adjuster-type PV actuation mechanisms because they will inevitably go out of adjustment and valves will hit pistons ... and so we need a system that has positive physical stops in both directions of travel. The Trinity setup fulfils this requirement, but the pods are too tall.

But by using the pulley system I am outlining here, the total PV pod protrusion can be limited to about 28mm.

The pulleys can easily be modded to give up to 10mm of vertical PV blade travel, which is more than enough for the job (the Trinity exhaust pressure-actuated system moves 8mm.) The pulleys just need the cam ramp to be re-profiled - an easy job by CNC - and the pulley hub needs boring out to accommodate the 12.60mm diameter of the PV blade plunger shaft.

A slot needs to be milled in the pulley hub to allow the PV blade actuating pin to travel up and down (it just so happens that the end of the pulley hub is a press fit into the base of the Trinity PV pod body), that's the basics out of the way.

The PV body needs to be drilled and threaded to accept a Bowden cable adjuster assy. The concern then is making sure oil leaks don't issue from the cable junction area. I have in mind Viton o-rings or oil seals inside the pulley hub, through which slides the PV blade plunger shaft (or a short extension of it.) Also, a snug carb-top type boot over the cable junction area.

The pulley needs to be modded to provide for a hard stop on the downward travel, or simply the existing PV blade can be arrested by a washer atop the shaft preventing the shaft going any deeper than flush with the top of the existing brass bush - much the same as happens with the existing Trinity system. Easy enough.

There's a reason I have inverted the pulley so that it forces the PV blade down - it's so there is absolutely no doubt that the blade is going down to its lower position and therefore doing the job of a powervalve!

If the pulley were the other way around (so that the cam points up) then we would have to rely on spring pressure to push the PV blade down to its lowest position ... and we can't know if that spring is being defeated by exhaust pressure at any point in time. Not without some sort of external indicator setup to show where the blade is at all times.

The valve blade could be returned to the upper position by a combination of exhaust pressure and puller spring tension.
Either that, or devise a pulley that has a cam groove on both sides of the PV blade pin, so that the blade is moved positively by the cam mechanism on both the upward and downward directions of travel. A bit sort of Desmo-ish eh!

[2gofast]

....Either that, or devise a pulley that has a cam groove on both sides of the PV blade pin, so that the blade is moved positively by the cam mechanism on both the upward and downward directions of travel.....

I can see this having the possibility of working extremely well Steve, I will start the cad work on a "bolt on" type setup to the "standard" Cheetah cylinders that I have here, as the only difference in that and the TSS cylinders will be the gate itself and the amount of travel which would be needed for the gate which is being used.
I will see what I can come up with. I am not above making a new pulley mechanism if that is what is needed.

[twostrokeshop]

Great to see renewed things happening....

Steve any chance you would do those torsion bars for the rz and rdlc ..?..

Cheers

I'll see what can be done, and let you know. It's a good idea, that's for sure.

Might it be an idea to re-bush the existing RZ tie bars with polyurethane of the appropriate Shore rating, or do you think the OEM bars are bending under the strain?