RSV1000R vs. Japanese 600's - At A Cross-Roads

[khanmotorsport]

I didn't want to clog the other gent's thread who posted about the competitivness of the RSV2 because my situation is a bit different.
Right now my bike is mid-way thru track prep (following a lowside) and I have the opportunity to trade it as it sits for a ready-to-go 600 (of the relativly generic japanese variety).

For the local series that I will be running in, apparently I can run the RSV2 with the 600's or so I'm told. Will be verifying this.

In addition to time, it would probably take another....call it $1000 to get my RSV fairings painted, safetywired and PC3 dynotuned, whereas I might be able to trade for a 2006 and up GSX-R or something of that sort.

Some of the things that keep rattling around in my skull are:

- 600's just about all have slipper clutch's stock now. Adding one would cost another $500+install (AF1 used...a shit ton more if new)
- 600's are around 40-50lbs lighter than the RSV2
- The RSV2 with PC3 should make more power but enough to offset the weight? The tracks that the regional series will run on are relativly short tracks, not like Mosport where the high speed sweepers and huge backstraight let you really flex some muscle, so is the power going to waste whereas the relative nimbleness of the 600 will come in handy.

Spares Packages:
- For the Aprilia, what should I keep with me (this is Canada, there probably won't be another RSV at the track...or within 50kms lol).
- It looks like the little things like toe pieces, hand controls and most fairing stays are almost the same price as the japanese bikes, but larger items like exhausts, forks, wheels etc will be pricier.

Emotional attachment to the RSV notwithstanding, any thoughts would be appreciated.

[amauri]

Generally speaking, Japanese 600 is faster and cheaper to race than RSV Twin.

[xa-mont]

but nowhere near as cool

[FASTER !]

Hey Omar ; I run a 04 Gen1 Tuono Factory at Fast Group level on trackdays locally. The track is a combination of some tricky semi tight stuff and very fast straights. At a road bike level my T makes about 128 hp with a good few cost effective mods , with really great torque delivery which the 600's just cannot compete with.

There may be a fundimental difference between trackday fun and semi serious racing , but I think your machine can be made at least as fast as a 600 with the importance placed on good suspension and handling setup rather than outright power. Amauri does have a point in that the RSV may be or become more expensive over time as you demand more from it ; but to me the satisfaction of running the Aprilia and running it well will offset the cost. My Factory T will be getting a 1060 kit by the end of this year or I am going to plumb for a V4 T , the problem is , I enjoy the twin so much that I fear nothing will compare in terms of combining the power and handling !!! The V4 may be faster , but the cost of going 4 seconds a lap faster is very very high !!! So the big question is ultimately , are you doing this for fun or to prove a point ? Use the Mille for fun , at 80% of the machines ability , if it is well sorted , it will run with and compete very well with a modern 600.

IMHO of course , though I admit to being biased , I have 2 Aprilia's !!!

[ffkevinking]

For comparison sake I went from an 04 Rsvr well sorted 128 at the rear wheel to an 06 zx6r (that's the 636 motor still legal in our 600 class) and at the end of the first race practice was over a full second faster on the 600. If you are looking to be competitive the 600s are the way to go. The Rsvr is a great street bike but as a race machine its really showing its age.
As a point to ponder my 6r which our shop race prepped and tuned was putting 127 at the wheel an was CONSIDERABLY lighter than the ape. Plus if I went down i could walk down the paddock and find parts in an emergency.

Kev

[wantahertzdonut]

To answer the PO, there's a reason most people run 600's at the track. I've talked to a few guys who brought 1000's and made one day before selling it and returning with a 600 the next season. With that said I may bring my Tuono out for one day, maybe, but the cost of throwing it down frightens me. My rule is, if you can't afford to push it off a cliff, don't bring it to the track.

If you're ok with that, the RSV would be fun, but will cost you more. Plus as Kev said, fixing a dumped Jap bike is a mere walk-around-the-pits away. I can vouch for that, after dropping my SV it took me 2 minutes to find a clutch lever and shifter, bought them from two different guys for a total of $25.

For comparison sake I went from an 04 Rsvr well sorted 128 at the rear wheel to an 06 zx6r (that's the 636 motor still legal in our 600 class) and at the end of the first race practice was over a full second faster on the 600. If you are looking to be competitive the 600s are the way to go. The Rsvr is a great street bike but as a race machine its really showing its age.
As a point to ponder my 6r which our shop race prepped and tuned was putting 127 at the wheel an was CONSIDERABLY lighter than the ape. Plus if I went down i could walk down the paddock and find parts in an emergency.

Kev

Which trackday group are you out with? I'm in Cleveland and have been around with mostly Motoseries, but also NESBA, and STT. I can't recall seeing any Aprilias but I wasn't really looking before. Just curious if we've crossed paths.

[wrx_02]

OK I have got this as I just sold my RSV for a 06 600 GSXR track only bike.

If I could have afforded to make payments and track the RSV I would have.
Both bikes have about the same power mods on them but the GSXR has full race suspension.
As for the power the RSV kills the GSXR power wise. It pulls a lot harder out of the corners, the brakes bite a lot harder also.
But the GSXR doesn't need as much brakes and I can carry more corner speed.

Jon @ AF1 told me if I was new to the track and still learning I would learn a lot more on a smaller bike as they are easier to ride and more flickable. If I have been riding awhile and want some more tq then the RSV is a good bike for me.

What it comes down to is the RSV is harder to ride on the track cause of the size and extra power.
It's like a go kart is easier to race than a Lambo. I don't know your racing background so I say if you can handle the power you may be at a large advantage on the RSV.

[rs250slowpoke]

Go with the 600. Smaller, lighter bikes are always easier to flick around especially if you are riding at shorter tracks as you mentioned. Whatever HP disadvantage the 600 has will more than be made up for by its handling.

[San&Gab]

I am not an expert, but let me give you my two cent advice since I had a race Tuono and a race RSV, and presently I have a race R6 (2008).
The RSV is a great bike to ride. Comparing its pros and cons vs a 600cc:
Pros of the RSV vs the R6:
a. It has a lot of torque, quite obvious when coming out of corners, on the first few meters of a straight, and when climbing up a bank. And that torque feels great.
b. I prefer to have power available at low rpm’s.
c. It sounds great and it does not hurt my ears.
d. For racing, one can compete with the twins, which is a nice and relatively easy category.

Cons of the RSV vs the R6:
a. Its heavier.
b. It requires more effort to turn.
c. It requires to pay much more attention when accelerating while still leaning (coming out of curves).
d. Chances are there no mechanics around to help you out in case sheet happens. And sheet always happens.
e. Parts are difficult to find (on race tracks).
f. I find it not as comfortable as the R6

Pros of the R6 vs the RSV:
a. Much easy to turn.
b. Much easy to accelerate while still leaning out of a curve.
c. Can carry more speed into, during and coming out of curves – this makes this bike very enjoyable.
d. Lots of people who understand this beast. Therefore it’s easy to set-up, fix, and plenty of spare parts available during race days/track days.
e. It’s a bit lighter than the RSV, and I think the weight distribution is also better.
f. It brakes as good as the RSV, with the advantage that it allows you to carry more speed into curbs… I should point out that I changed the front pads to increase its braking power.
g. Overall, it’s easy to drive.

Cons of the R6 vs the RSV:

a. Above 12,000 rpm it makes so much noise that it’s painful to your ears.
b. If you don’t carry sufficient speed out of curves you are a sitting duck. Specially if you don’t exit at high rpm’s.
c. Must always be above 10,000 rpm for the thing to move. It requires some getting used to it.
d. For racing purposes, 600 cc (middle weight) categories are very, very competitive. And lots of crazy guys (and girls) as well. Not a good thing (at least for me).

Also: the bike set-up is extremely important and it does make a big difference to your ridding. Suspension set up, on the R6, makes a huge difference in your ability to turn and flip the bike around. Get your bike, whichever it is, set up by a professional. It’s money well spent.

[Sprtbkbabe]

There's some solid advice all above for you to compare

Although, if you want to race the RSVR, you can make it work. Plastics and parts are easier to come by than most would think.

I raced a 2000 Mille for 2 years before switching to a CBR600RR last year. Since your 2005 could be run in vintage classes in the future, it could be fun and something to hold onto. (That also depends on who you want to race with/against). However, I decided to try something lighter and split parts access with my pit-mate who also races a CBR600RR. My Mille did get me to 2nd in the class for the year

My Mille was a daily driver for many years and I'd ridden it from CA to Deals Gap. So, I was used to the torque out of corners and the reliability I'd had with that bike. But, it was a damn heavy thing to lug around on the track. I'm a taller girl and in good enough shape to ride in 30 minute endurance races on it, but I noticed how less tired I was when I went to the CBR. I now have to shift more times with a 600 which is sort of a PITA

If you're going to be on a short(er) track, a more nimble ride is better. You could shave off as much weight on the RSVR to make it so...?

[khanmotorsport]

Thanks for the feedback thusfar.
Another thing that I'm factoring in is that a couple of people have mentioned putting in 1060 kits and stuff like that but that's not an option for me. I don't want to do that kind of work on the bike and then have to keep more parts in stock and have to deal with finding someone who knows what their doing.

Sprtbkbabe: In terms of weight reduction, besides the exhaust (done), removing the street stuff (done) and maybe removing the charcoal canister (not that heavy), i think it would be tough to get an RSV down to 380lbs dry...BST wheels would help but they cost a metric f**kton (not sure what that is in imperial measurements ).

For the series i'd like to run, one track is only 3kms long (so short once you factor in the two straights), and the other is probably not much longer but seems to have less of an infield section.

http://www.grandbendraceway.com/race...d=15&Itemid=26

[San&Gab]

My RSVR had:

A 1060 kit (done by KWS)

Full TiO2 race exaust (Akra).

Light-weight OZ rings

Quick shifter

A better front Brenbo brake pump

Quick responce trotle

Ohlins in front (super bike kit) and back

That bike was a blast.... still, the R6 (with quick shifter, race ECU, GP-style shifter, Ohlins back and front, the motor has more compression than stock and more stuff) is a better track / race bike - in my opinion.

[steve p]

This is a great thread. If someone would have told me in 2010 I would be racing a 2002 Mille in 2011 I would have said no way. I had a 2006 GSXR1000 and my GF has a CBR600RR and a 2008 R6. I've ridden and raced all of them including the 2002 Mille R.

R6 is a killer 600. It handles like a dream, is easy to set up and spare parts are plentiful in the paddock. They do have problems though. Motors don't seem to last long and a few other well known problems. In fact, every brand seems to have their Achilles heal. As San&Gab said, you have to keep the rpm's spinning to make power.

Even though the Mille is getting long in the tooth, it has many strong attributes. The bike is about as stable a motorcycle you will ever find. It doesn't flick as well as a modern 600 so you have to think and plan ahead a little more. Once you are committed, you can start pouring the coals to her while the 600's are still trying to get their chassis settled. They come out of a corner like a bear out of hibernation and have great brakes. I have not had any problems getting spares or any parts I've needed at a decent price. It just takes planning and a little forward thinking. As far as a slipper goes, I still prefer to ride a bike without a slipper. Since the age of the slipper, riders have gotten lazy and sloppy and honestly are overlooking one of the best tools on the bike, the clutch.

I sold my GSXR1000 and ride the Mille only, occasionally riding the R6. I like them both, but even with a bone stock motor, I'll go head to head with any 600 any time. I don't see the Mille costing much if anymore to track than a modern 600. Just my opinion.

[khanmotorsport]

The deal is done. Will be taking delivery of a PC3 equipped 2006 GSX-R 600 some time in february and truth be told already have buyers remorse lol.
Will definitly be back on an RSV in the future (an Ice White one if I'm lucky) and thanks to everyone who has helped me with my Aprilia thus far.

I hope I won't be excommunicated from here now that I'm on a Japanese I-4

[wrx_02]

^^^ I did the same thing.