PCV on RSV4 (factory)

[mikef4uk]

Night and day difference to the std Sachs that was on my R. I got it for 700 notes so at that price I couldn't turn it down. Even riding slowly through the village to get to the good roads it was absorbing the road surace bumps much better, going quicker it just felt much much smoother.

Same thing when I put the TTX on the S1000RR, it felt harder at v slow speeds like going off the drive onto the road but much better once at any speed above 20mph

[amauri]

Do you have proof?

Here we go again...

You did it your way, and you're happy with it. Good.
What map version do you have on your stock ECU?

I've recently bought a rsv 4 09 model with akrapavic can on, the can does not have the aprilia sticker on it.
I had a couple of quick rides on the bike and i have found between 6 and 7K it has a flat spot/splutter.
Can any of you guys advise me on the best way to rectify this?
I've read alot of posts about possibly needing the race ECU but to be honest i get lost off in all the details about maps etc.
Would fitting a PC5 be enough to sort the problem or do i need to delve deeper? Many thanks in advance.

Hellboy,

I don't own a V4, but I have several customers who do and they bring them to me for service work and performance upgrades.
The best part is that I get to test all possible combinations of performance parts without spending my own money.

I've ridden and Dynoed them with the race map, with the PC5, with the Bazzaz and with race map + PC5 and race map + Bazzaz.
If I owned a V4 and wanted to install a pipe, the first thing I would do is install the race map/ECU

If you want to spend more money, go ahead and install the PC5, but only after first installing the Race map.

[mikef4uk]

Here we go again...

You did it your way, and you're happy with it. Good.
What map version do you have on your stock ECU?



Hellboy,

I don't own a V4, but I have several customers who do and they bring them to me for service work and performance upgrades.
The best part is that I get to test all possible combinations of performance parts without spending my own money.

I've ridden and Dynoed them with the race map, with the PC5, with the Bazzaz and with race map + PC5 and race map + Bazzaz.
If I owned a V4 and wanted to install a pipe, the first thing I would do is install the race map/ECU

If you want to spend more money, go ahead and install the PC5, but only after first installing the Race map.

Most dyno operators in Europe say the bike runs fine with just an akra pipe

Whatever map is loaded from the factory for a European bike

So ''here we go again'' means your not going to answer the question again?

I believe the ''race map'' must be unbelievably good, because from what I have picked up from other posts (I see you avoided this question) it works in USA, and Europe with any combination of header/exhaust and whether the db insert is fitted or not, one hell of a single map that one

[Chris_Mag]

To compensate, move the swingarm pivot to the lower mount point.

Are you sure? My understanding is that lowering the swingarm pivot would reduce the swingarm angle, thus reducing anti-squat and increasing weight transfer to the rear under acceleration.



Mike, have you made any adjustments to the shock length yet?

[illtal]

Most dyno operators in Europe say the bike runs fine with just an akra pipe

Whatever map is loaded from the factory for a European bike

So ''here we go again'' means your not going to answer the question again?

I believe the ''race map'' must be unbelievably good, because from what I have picked up from other posts (I see you avoided this question) it works in USA, and Europe with any combination of header/exhaust and whether the db insert is fitted or not, one hell of a single map that one

Mike,
I think what Amuri is getting at ( and I believe he is one of the race team technicians in the us- MAYBE) you cannot see the differences in what the ECU is doing without a datalogger. I can say from personal experience ( I live in the US), that without a race map and just a SLIP ON, the bike runs horribly, IE choppy throttle, a VERY audible 7k rpm hiccup and other small nuances, that went away after I got the race mapping installed.

The PCV can an will control fueling via EGR (Exhaust Gas Ratios) readings, but it does have its own shortcomings. Every dyno graph from an RSV4 that i've seen with a bazzaz or a pcv has about 7-10 more hp from leaning out the EGRS. Personally my bike dynoed at 154 HP with race map and a slip on in 98 degree heat. My EGR was as low at 10:1 I believe - and it stayed lower than 12:1 for most of the 70% throttle and greater runs.

There are NUMEROUS posts about Bazzaz/PCV and Race Maps here on the board, which is why he said 'here we go again'. People say it runs fine in Europe due to "better" gas, which I beg to differ, the Ratings are different due to different Measuring systems. The only difference here is that US gas has up to 10% ethanol in basically all of the pumps, and Ethanol has a higher BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption - How much of a particular fuel it takes to create the same amount of HP) than straight gasoline.

I for one have been concerned about unplugging the O2 Sensor on my RSV4 because maybe throwing a code or retarded ignition timing or something weird happening because the Stock ecu needs to know all of this to continuously change the ignition and fueling (fueling in my opinion could be a little leaner at more aggressive throttle angles).

Most Jap bikes do not use a continuously variable system from what my tuner has told me. This is why the PC and bazzaz works a lot better on those bikes. Also the Race Mapping will cost you 400 bux - the PCV/SFM module is 430 MINIMUM + another 250 for the autotune.

I'm curious about getting one, 165 HP sounds Nice... If I do not see at least 160 HP with the headers, I may take a harder look at a PC5...

Good write up on the install... wish you had pix for us to see.

CG

[Chris_Mag]

Most dyno operators in Europe say the bike runs fine with just an akra pipe

Whatever map is loaded from the factory for a European bike

So ''here we go again'' means your not going to answer the question again?

I believe the ''race map'' must be unbelievably good, because from what I have picked up from other posts (I see you avoided this question) it works in USA, and Europe with any combination of header/exhaust and whether the db insert is fitted or not, one hell of a single map that one

Unfortunately, the one thing noone here has is experience riding or tuning both versions of the mapping. What we have as anecdotal evidence that the UK map is less lean because reported fuel consumption appears to be higher in the UK and in Australia and New Zealand, but since we cannot eliminate variables such as riding habits, it's not reliable for the purposes of comparison.

I can say, as many others have, that the race mapping is night and day better from a riding standpoint vs the US stock mapping. The power delivery is quite a bit better - my experience is limited to the 2010 V2 stock vs 2010 race map, but I haven't tried the APRC Race map. I agree with illtal that a slip-on on a stock US map is not good - I tried it for a few dozen miles and the bike felt like shit through the middle RPM range. The 10' race map increased fuel consumption to levels I wasn't happy with for street use and so I settled on the 11' APRC map w/ the stock exhaust and have been satisfied ever since.

As it has been noted, the race map changes parameters the PC5 and Bazzaz cannot - RBW throttle translation tables, power limiting in Sport and Road mode and almost certainly ignition timing, which is why it's the ideal starting point for tuning for owners w/o deep pockets.

The real debate between UK and US mapping is whether it is safe to run a slip-on w/o a change to the race map or a custom map via a PC5/Zi-Fi. Since you have mapped over the top of the stock UK map, I would guess this is a non-issue for your bike.

[V4Victory]

There are NUMEROUS posts about Bazzaz/PCV and Race Maps here on the board, which is why he said 'here we go again'. People say it runs fine in Europe due to "better" gas, which I beg to differ, the Ratings are different due to different Measuring systems. The only difference here is that US gas has up to 10% ethanol in basically all of the pumps, and Ethanol has a higher BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption - How much of a particular fuel it takes to create the same amount of HP) than straight gasoline.

CG

Something is definitely strangling the bikes as all the latest tackle from BMW, Kawasaki and Aprilia the US versions are at least 10 bhp down on peak power compared to the euro versions. It might explain why the race mapping is night and day better than the stock us mapping. Would be interesting to see the results of someone with a us bike with the euro map flashed to the ecu

[aarfeldt]

Are you sure? My understanding is that lowering the swingarm pivot would reduce the swingarm angle, thus reducing anti-squat and increasing weight transfer to the rear under acceleration.

Forgot to mention, I made the shock 3mm longer at the same time (313mm total).
The result for me was better rear grip (less aTC interaction) and less front lifting (better control and less aWC interaction).
The datalogger tells me exactly where aTC/aWC cuts in, and I'm working on minimizing these areas.
I don't want to lift or spin, I want to go forward :-)

[mikef4uk]

OK, I spoke to more than a few people before I went in the PCV direction, I know from past experience there is an awful lot of difference between USA and UK fuel and mapping:

I asked Dan Kyle for a S1000RR map for Akra full system WITH db insert fitted, he obliged saying ''It's only a starting point for the UK, you will need to take out 10% fuel across the range'' the AT did exactly that.

Xplane R1 USA bike close the throttles at 10,000 rpm to 80% to lower the peak power, this is because USA bikes are tested for noise at 50% of peak power rpm, they also have narrower pipe work on the exhaust.

I spoke to Austin Racing and a couple of dyno operators who are familiar with the RSV4 ''Should I buy the race ecu or unlock map?'' the reply was consistant, for a road bike you won't notice the difference IF you are going to fit a PCV or bazzaz.

Mine actually rode better with just the slip on and no mapping change until I got the PCV.

A lot of dyno operators knock the AT, In all honesty they are not going to say anything else!! here is a device that custom maps your bike as you ride it, once your happy, you can take it off, sell it, keep it for your next bike, lend it all your mates or (as I do) leave it fitted with a small permitted adjustment (+/- 5%) that way if it does fail it won't wreck anything. It has worked on my last 3 bikes, so I actually saved 3x custom mapping money at £120 a time, the only thing I don't have is a hp curve to put in my draw.

One thing I have noticed since the PCV was fitted is throttle response especially in 'T' mode, it is now much sharper or respnsive, I used to leave it in T mode all the time, now I am finding I switch it to 'S' mode if I am doing a lot of town type stuff

I'm not trying to say the Race ecu is crap, if one appears on ebay or a std ecu I will jump at it and get AF1 to do the map thing, get it fitted and let the AT correct accordingly

[PGrange]

Something is definitely strangling the bikes as all the latest tackle from BMW, Kawasaki and Aprilia the US versions are at least 10 bhp down on peak power compared to the euro versions. It might explain why the race mapping is night and day better than the stock us mapping. Would be interesting to see the results of someone with a us bike with the euro map flashed to the ecu

Here in the UK I have the Akra slip-on running the standard 11 map on a 10R, it runs fine, no holes or anything nasty.

The dealer tells me the race map is not needed for just the slip on in the UK, only for he full system, although it would be nice to have the the "Race" moniker on the dash.

It seems all the talk in the US about race ECU's is down to local laws etc requiring so called lean burn engines plus of course poor fuel quality.

Peter

[mikef4uk]

Mike,
I think what Amuri is getting at ( and I believe he is one of the race team technicians in the us- MAYBE) you cannot see the differences in what the ECU is doing without a datalogger. I can say from personal experience ( I live in the US), that without a race map and just a SLIP ON, the bike runs horribly, IE choppy throttle, a VERY audible 7k rpm hiccup and other small nuances, that went away after I got the race mapping installed.

I felt the dip on mine sometimes, it made no difference when I fitted the akra slip on

The PCV can an will control fueling via EGR (Exhaust Gas Ratios) readings, but it does have its own shortcomings. Every dyno graph from an RSV4 that i've seen with a bazzaz or a pcv has about 7-10 more hp from leaning out the EGRS. Personally my bike dynoed at 154 HP with race map and a slip on in 98 degree heat. My EGR was as low at 10:1 I believe - and it stayed lower than 12:1 for most of the 70% throttle and greater runs.

There are NUMEROUS posts about Bazzaz/PCV and Race Maps here on the board, which is why he said 'here we go again'. People say it runs fine in Europe due to "better" gas, which I beg to differ, the Ratings are different due to different Measuring systems. The only difference here is that US gas has up to 10% ethanol in basically all of the pumps, and Ethanol has a higher BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption - How much of a particular fuel it takes to create the same amount of HP) than straight gasoline.

I for one have been concerned about unplugging the O2 Sensor on my RSV4 because maybe throwing a code or retarded ignition timing or something weird happening because the Stock ecu needs to know all of this to continuously change the ignition and fueling (fueling in my opinion could be a little leaner at more aggressive throttle angles).

As yet! no code on the display, I'll bet there is a 'soft code' if you looked at it with the Navigator

Most Jap bikes do not use a continuously variable system from what my tuner has told me. This is why the PC and bazzaz works a lot better on those bikes. Also the Race Mapping will cost you 400 bux - the PCV/SFM module is 430 MINIMUM + another 250 for the autotune.

I agree, PCV/SFM is not cheap due to Aprilia swapping from low to high injectors, the BMW for e.g runs the lowers right through the rpm range so only a PCV is req, tuners find no gain for fitting a SFM on the S1000RR

I'm curious about getting one, 165 HP sounds Nice... If I do not see at least 160 HP with the headers, I may take a harder look at a PC5...

Good write up on the install... wish you had pix for us to see.

To be honest, it was the hardest install of a PCV I have ever encountered, bottom injectors require the whole airbox removing, whilst I thought the top one's would be easy I spent probably a whole day trying to get the now male/female injector combination plug out of the way to get the tank back down, I gave up in the end and carefully removed the original inj plug and PCV male plug as I was not happy with the tank pressing on them CG

Mike.

[mikef4uk]

Are you sure? My understanding is that lowering the swingarm pivot would reduce the swingarm angle, thus reducing anti-squat and increasing weight transfer to the rear under acceleration.



Mike, have you made any adjustments to the shock length yet?

I have'nt touched anything as yet, I thought I would be heading for a TTX but as yet I am still finding the std Ohlins OK, once I get to the point where the bike isn't doing what I want I will start to fiddle!! as yet the RSV4 is a complete revelation when compared to the S1000RR

PS: message for Leon Haslem: your never going to catch Max mate, or Laverty next year

[mikef4uk]

I guess you have all seen these, Austin racing RSV4aprc map, talking to a few dyno tuners that have tuned a few RSV4's 180bhp is about the upper limit. nice fuel ratio at the bottom, looks like about mid 13's ?

I'm going to add the graph from the R1vRSV4 thread, I know different days, different dyno's, poss DIN v SAE etc but these bikes are miles apart hp wise

top run is with a MWR filter, have you seen one? for the life of me I can't see how they work???

You USA guys are missing out big time

[mikef4uk]

Here we go again...

You did it your way, and you're happy with it. Good.
What map version do you have on your stock ECU?

c'mon, were all on the same side here,

[Hellboy]

Thanks to you all for your advice, i'll let you know how i get on.