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Thread: Tank deforming/bulging anyone?

  1. #151
    apriliaforum newb
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    See my prior posts on this issue.

    Nylon 6 (aka polyamide 6) reacts to both ethanol and water.

    It absorbs ethanol and may expand up to 10% of its volume and weight. This process is essentially reversible and once the ethanol dries out, the tank should be ok.

    It also absorbs water though, and there is plenty of evidence that that is causing the tanks to have surface defects that do NOT go away once the tank dries. Your tanks are rotomolded and small air pockets can form in the wall, part of why the wall of your gas tank needs to be almost 3/4" thick. When the surface inhales the water, it can reach a pocket and sit there.

    I got a tank (off a Ducati monster) that had expanded and had it cut to examine the material -- the first thing we noticed was moisture seeping out of the wall itself in proximity to the worst looking areas. This tank had sat for months in a dry garage.

  2. #152
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    Ducati gas tank lawsuit

    For your reading pleasure:
    http://www.ashonbikes.com/content/du...ing-us-lawsuit

    Sure miss the metal tank in the past.weight saving at expense of deformation, not nice.

  3. #153
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    This is not a fuel blend problem...

    All car tanks swell some by design, but nobody know it because they are not a sexy painted component between your legs. They only cause problems when there's a ventilation malfunction, often design flaws. It happens, but automotive vapor recovery systems are so much more sophisticated than motorcycle systems that it is very rare. Toyota is the biggest culprit.

    This is not caused by ethanol blends. That's manufacturer speak for ass covering. This is an inherent design flaw either in the tank construction or the vapor ventilation system. In the US, this is covered under mandatory EPA emissions warranty for at least 2/24, possibly 8/80. California is even more stringent.

    From EPA site:

    A. PERFORMANCE WARRANTY

    The Performance Warranty covers repairs which are required during
    the first 2 years or 24,000 miles of vehicle use because the vehicle
    failed an emission test. Specified major emission control components
    are covered for the first 8 years or 80,000 miles.

    During the first 2 years/24,000 miles, the Performance Warranty
    covers any repair or adjustment which is necessary to make your
    vehicle pass an approved, locally-required emission test and as long
    as your vehicle has not exceeded the warranty time or mileage
    limitations and has been properly maintained according to the
    manufacturer's specifications.


    B. DESIGN AND DEFECT WARRANTY

    The Design and Defect Warranty covers repair of emission related
    parts which become defective during the warranty period. The Design
    and Defect warranty for model year 1995 and newer light-duty cars and
    trucks is outlined below:

    Design and Defect Warranty Coverage for 1995 and newer light-duty
    vehicles:

    * Emission control and emission related parts are covered for the
    first 2 years or 24,000 miles of vehicle use; and

    * Specified major emission control components are covered for the
    first 8 years or 80,000 miles of vehicle use.

    According to federal law, an emission control or emission related
    part, or a specified major emission control component, that fails
    because of a defect in materials or workmanship, must be repaired or
    replaced by the vehicle manufacturer free of charge as long as the
    vehicle has not exceeded the warranty time or mileage limitations for
    the failed part.

    Design and Defect Warranty coverage may vary depending on the
    type of vehicle you have (e.g., heavy-duty trucks, motorcycles or
    recreational vehicles have different time and mileage requirements).
    To determine the length of warranty coverage that applies to your
    vehicle, look for the emissions warranty information in your owner's
    manual or warranty booklet. If you own a California vehicle, you may
    be entitled to additional warranty coverage.
    Note this warranty is mandated by law and in addition to manufacturers' warranty.

    http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/warr95fs.txt
    Last edited by Motech; 12-09-2010 at 03:33 PM.
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  4. #154
    Graphicologist Extraordinaire ckruzel's Avatar
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    it wont fall under that
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  5. #155
    apriliaforum expert Motech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckruzel View Post
    it wont fall under that
    Yes it does. It just takes diligence, and it's easier in CA. I've checked, and sent customers back to dealers for EPA emissions warranty work on similar issues in the past, especially the shitty EVAP vapor recovery systems on many Suzuki bikes. Motorcycle coverage just has different (shorter) time schedules than cars, so it's important to jump on a problem early and get all actions documented.
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  6. #156
    Graphicologist Extraordinaire ckruzel's Avatar
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    cars have 2/24 also. (some parts can go up to 8/80 also) emissions is emissions, i dont know if you work for a dealer or a private shop, but i worked in the automotive field for 23 years and i can tell you, if the system that was approved is working as designed your not going to get anything. the bike has a 2/24 warranty on it and people have been having the tanks replaced. right now we have a visual issue with the tanks, so far they hold fluid, and the system vents, so barking up the emissions tree isnt going to do anything for this problem. its going to take a bunch of tanks getting replaced so aprilia see's there is a problem before getting it redesigned. the best thing anyone can do is have the tank replaced
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  7. #157
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    Not trying to thread jack but ckruzel you gonna return any of my PM's buddy?

  8. #158
    apriliaforum expert RAS's Avatar
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    Caused by the fuel or not, the folk here who sell the stuff are already worried about being sued over E15 getting put into older vehicles. And it's not even sold yet http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com...248/index.aspx

    I work as a biochemist. I get adverts from all sorts of chemical companies and coincidentally received one from a company, Supelco, that makes it's living selling gas, and liquid chromatography stuff. The flyer told the virtues of a kit used in the analysis (there are regs on contamination levels) of not only the ethanol content of gasoline, but the sugars(it's fermented from complex sugars by yeast after all) and methanol that's in the fuel. Yes methanol, it's either added as a "denaturant" so that no one can safely drink the ethanol before it's poured into the fuel, or it's a dirty byproduct of contaminating microbes other than yeast in the fermentation process.

    I would have guessed that nylons would be pretty inert to water or even some EtOH, but who knows what else is in E10 that might not be so kind? E15 will be worse. And I'm gonna guess that E10 brewed up here in PA is not the same as E10 in California.

    My Futura's gas tanked leaked at the fuel pump plate at mile 700 and then leaked again, and again before using Devcon Flexwelder to fill in the bowed areas between the mounting bolts to make the tank bottom flat again. After being leak-free for 2 years, none of this is good news. At least, the new tanks aren't leaking,

    yet. rick

  9. #159
    Graphicologist Extraordinaire ckruzel's Avatar
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    one option is the carbon tank cover that aprilia is making
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  10. #160
    Graphicologist Extraordinaire ckruzel's Avatar
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    i called aprilia yesterday just for some info on the tank issue, spoke to a guy there that was really nice, he listened took down all my info, said he would look into it, he called back and told me that tech was aware of the problem and several tanks were shipped over to italy for testing and they are working with the vendor to correct the situation
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  11. #161
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    Thats good news

  12. #162
    apriliaforum expert Eppy's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^

    Great news! Thanks for the update.
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  13. #163
    apriliaforum expert JAndrewG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ckruzel View Post
    cars have 2/24 also. (some parts can go up to 8/80 also) emissions is emissions, i dont know if you work for a dealer or a private shop, but i worked in the automotive field for 23 years and i can tell you, if the system that was approved is working as designed your not going to get anything. the bike has a 2/24 warranty on it and people have been having the tanks replaced. right now we have a visual issue with the tanks, so far they hold fluid, and the system vents, so barking up the emissions tree isnt going to do anything for this problem. its going to take a bunch of tanks getting replaced so aprilia see's there is a problem before getting it redesigned. the best thing anyone can do is have the tank replaced
    Don't know how it falls under an emissions warranty, but it does. The Ducati guys are getting beyond the standard 2 year warranty for replacement tanks because of the five year emissions warranty. My own GT1000 got it's tank that way, I was well past my two years.
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  14. #164
    Graphicologist Extraordinaire ckruzel's Avatar
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    if you read back it was "goodwill" and that is not warranty, if ducati wants they can "goodwill" a crashed bike for another new one
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  15. #165
    apriliaforum expert JAndrewG's Avatar
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    All I know is what I was told by my dealer about the tank. I also know there are guys with '06 Sport Classics that are close to having a five year old bike and will then be out of that five year emissions warranty, and are wondering what they'll do then. Some are on their third or fourth tank.
    2008 RSV 1000 R, platinum/charcoal/red
    Akrapovic full system, NERA top triple clamp, Aprilia accessory rear sets, AF1 Ti bolt kit, etc. etc...


    2008 Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport, black... and stock for now

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