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Thread: Ricks Motorsports Stator Version 2 - Thicker next step wires

  1. #301
    apriliaforum prov-nov TYEster's Avatar
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    Sweet, happy to hear.

    Looks like it's back to the MX world tomorrow then! RSVR should get one more weekend before the H2R shootout and trackday during Labor Day weekend.

    Gives me a chance to finish off those Pirelli's and mount the new rubber that just showed up yesterday.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micah / AF1 Racing View Post
    The guys over on the Kawasaki Vulcan (750cc at least) forum are oil cooling their stators, I helped set up plumbing on one this week after work. This is an interesting concept and easy for us to do if nothing else works. The vulcan guys are claiming a gain of about 50k miles on the life of the stator.
    Yamaha did the same thing on the first generation V-4 in response to smoked stators. They drilled the end of the crankshaft for more oil cooling. The Vision (550cc V-twin) had the same problem but the bike was only around for two years, so Yamaha never came up with a fix for it.
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  3. #303
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    I'll throw another idea out there. Why not have the rotor partially demagnetized? Who could do that? Perhaps a speaker reconing service. To recone a speaker properly, you have to demagnetize it, recone, and magnetize. If we have it verified that the olde Mille had weak rotor magnets of X-gauss, take the new rotor and degauss it to the same X-value.
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  4. #304
    Honest always, feared often Micah / AF1 Racing's Avatar
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    Diablo1, I have yet to speak to anyone who who thinks they can change the magnetism of the flywheel, if you can point out some links I would be happy to read them.

    BTW, running voltage, using two different regulators with the early stator is about 13.44-13.46V once the regulator settles into a steady rate with the bike under load and at middle rpms. This is more than enough and not too much either, maybe, just maybe this old stator will hold up when used in the late model chassis/motor.
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  5. #305
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by posplayr View Post
    ...The FET R/R DOES NOT protect the stator that is a fallacy. If your new FET R/R is running cooler than your original R/R it is because the stator is now absorbing the drop in heat from the FET based unit...
    Posplayr, I don't want you to think I am attacking you just for sport or anything. Your experience with series regulators is of great interest here. But your statement above seems to imply that heat being generated at the rectifier is somehow being transfered to the stator. I can't think of any way that this could happen. Would you care to explain how this works?

  6. #306
    apriliaforum Member doozerdave's Avatar
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    It almost sounds like some are losing sight of the real issue. Current. At this point in the thread everyone should know that the OEM R/R shunts excess current to keep the voltage at 14.3ish. Any shunt R/R, no matter the design, will still be doing the same. You will still have the excess current flow at full battery charge. ie, high current flow all the time. The stator is an inductor, and when running it has impedance (inductive resistance at some frequency), which means it's resisting the current flow, thus causing a voltage drop. Power = Voltage * Current, and the power is dissipated as heat. We know that equals stator death.

    Series R/R operates without the high current flow once the battery is charged. Lower current = lower power to dissipate as heat.

    Using oil to cool a stator that is overheating due to a poor charging system design is an effective kludge, but it sounds bad to me. Remember the pictures of burnt stators? With burnt oil all over them? Carbonised oil getting around the engine can't be good.

    Lots of bikes use cheap R/R's and get away with it one way or another, probably with good oil flow or extra beefy wires and lower overall system power.
    -Dave

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micah / AF1 Racing View Post
    Diablo1, I have yet to speak to anyone who who thinks they can change the magnetism of the flywheel, if you can point out some links I would be happy to read them.

    BTW, running voltage, using two different regulators with the early stator is about 13.44-13.46V once the regulator settles into a steady rate with the bike under load and at middle rpms. This is more than enough and not too much either, maybe, just maybe this old stator will hold up when used in the late model chassis/motor.
    Any magnet can be demagnetized, partially or completely. I don't know if it's practical to demagnetize the Ape's flywheel. It could require special fixtures. I've never looked at the flywheel, so I don't know how it's manufactured. My guess is that the magnets are not charged before they are assembled onto the flywheel. Then a fixture is used to charge the magnets in the correct orientation - half North poles and half South poles. I doubt there are any companies that demagnetize motorcycle flywheels as a standard procedure or repair. The general thought for electromagnetism and power generation is that higher flux density is a good thing. So no one will be out there trying to reduce the flux density (magnetic strength of the permanent magnet alternator). Maybe get out the hammer to bang out some Gauss. Check the links.

    http://www.x-magnet.net/faq.html
    http://www.jd2cylservice.com/Misc15A...Magnetizer.pdf
    Last edited by Diablo1; 08-21-2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Another linky
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  8. #308
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doozerdave View Post
    It almost sounds like some are losing sight of the real issue. Current. At this point in the thread everyone should know that the OEM R/R shunts excess current to keep the voltage at 14.3ish. Any shunt R/R, no matter the design, will still be doing the same. You will still have the excess current flow at full battery charge. ie, high current flow all the time....
    I guess the best way to evaluate these different regulators would be to measure the current coming from the stator once the battery is fully charged. I don't think anyone has done that.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzmille View Post
    Posplayr, I don't want you to think I am attacking you just for sport or anything. Your experience with series regulators is of great interest here. But your statement above seems to imply that heat being generated at the rectifier is somehow being transfered to the stator. I can't think of any way that this could happen. Would you care to explain how this works?



    SHUNT_vs_SERIES_RR_Compare_Tutorial

    http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com...R_Tutorial.pdf

    The total power being generated by the stator is expended in three places.

    The stator winding in terms of heat
    The R/R in the process of converting 3Phase to DC
    and the electrical system


    An SCR type SHUNT is less efficient because it drops more voltage (voltage time the current is power loss)than a FET SHUNT type. If the regulated output to the electrical system is the same, then the power not dissipated in the R/R is dissipated in the stator.
    Last edited by posplayr; 08-21-2010 at 07:18 PM.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by doozerdave View Post
    It almost sounds like some are losing sight of the real issue. Current. At this point in the thread everyone should know that the OEM R/R shunts excess current to keep the voltage at 14.3ish. Any shunt R/R, no matter the design, will still be doing the same. You will still have the excess current flow at full battery charge. ie, high current flow all the time. The stator is an inductor, and when running it has impedance (inductive resistance at some frequency), which means it's resisting the current flow, thus causing a voltage drop. Power = Voltage * Current, and the power is dissipated as heat. We know that equals stator death.

    Series R/R operates without the high current flow once the battery is charged. Lower current = lower power to dissipate as heat.

    Using oil to cool a stator that is overheating due to a poor charging system design is an effective kludge, but it sounds bad to me. Remember the pictures of burnt stators? With burnt oil all over them? Carbonised oil getting around the engine can't be good.

    Lots of bikes use cheap R/R's and get away with it one way or another, probably with good oil flow or extra beefy wires and lower overall system power.
    I'm sure that most have not even grasped what the real issue is, the concept that the stator windings are being shorted and the impact it has in a little hard to grasp.

    Few realize that there is a contamination machine operating right in your motor in the form of burnt oil, and insulation in addition to the excess heat being absorbed by the engine from the stator.
    Last edited by posplayr; 08-21-2010 at 07:20 PM.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzmille View Post
    I guess the best way to evaluate these different regulators would be to measure the current coming from the stator once the battery is fully charged. I don't think anyone has done that.
    I did exactly that comparing a SERIES to a FA0012A FET type SHUNT.

    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...96&postcount=2

    Looks like the SERIES regulator reduces the power dissipation in the stator by about 3:1 as the current flow in the SERIES is about 27 amps compared to a maximum of 15 for the SERIES unit.

    So other that the big Hp gain the Compu Fire does everything as promised. The reason there is not more heat lost in the FH012AA is the magnets saturate and can't create any more than 27 amps.

    An early thread when I first investigated the FET based R/R
    http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum...1&postcount=33

    DEcosse has been studying the R/R and is a proponent of the FET type but also realizes that they put more stress on the stator. If the stator is burning up the only real solution is a SERIES R/R. Reducing magnetization will also help but at the expense of low speed charging.

    http://www.triumphrat.net/1649754-post8.html
    Last edited by posplayr; 08-21-2010 at 07:33 PM.

  12. #312
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    Here's a simple explanation why the series regulator will reduce the temperature in the stator. To regulate voltage, the series regulator increases the resistance. The high resistance reduces current in the stator. Less current in the stator means less heat in the stator! The shunt regulator ( of ANY type FET or whatever) does not change the resistance of the load connected to the stator.
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  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diablo1 View Post
    Here's a simple explanation why the series regulator will reduce the temperature in the stator. To regulate voltage, the series regulator increases the resistance. The high resistance reduces current in the stator. Less current in the stator means less heat in the stator! The shunt regulator ( of ANY type FET or whatever) does not change the resistance of the load connected to the stator.
    The simplest analogy I have is that the stator is producing current like your house wiring. The lights in your room are too bright (the electrical load). You want to dim the lights and you are the R/R......

    To dim the lights (control the voltage). The SHUNT R/R is like taking a pair of screwdrivers and shorting a wall socket. The lights dim but if it was not for a fuse box the HOUSE wiring would fry. This is why SHUNT control is called CROWBARING.

    The SERIES is does increase resistance, but in the simplest terms it essentially just OPENS the stator winding like a light switch (the SERIES is like like turning off the light switch v.s. SHUNT shorting the wall socket) so no current can flow when it the Series switch is open. The SHUNT shorts the winding when you want no current flowing to the electrical system.

    I know this sounds stupid, but that is how a SHUNT regulator works. The reason they are installed on almost every non alternator bike is that they are so cheap to make (probably less than $5-$10 in quantity) and can be sold for $100 retail. Never mind it fires stator,s over heats motors and contaminates your oil.


    A series R/R like the Compufire will make your plain old simple 3 phase stator more efficient than an alternator.
    Last edited by posplayr; 08-21-2010 at 07:53 PM.

  14. #314
    apriliaforum expert kzmille's Avatar
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    I understand why a series type causes less heat in the stator. I don't understand why a FET type would put more heat into the stator than the SRC type.

    Quote Originally Posted by posplayr View Post
    ....An SCR type SHUNT is less efficient because it drops more voltage (voltage time the current is power loss)than a FET SHUNT type. If the regulated output to the electrical system is the same, then the power not dissipated in the R/R is dissipated in the stator.
    The second sentence here is the one I'm having a hard time with. It doesn't really matter though. I know the series type is what I am interested in.

    Thank you posplayr for all the information and links. I know that many here will really appreciate it as do I.

    Lots of reading to do...

    One last question.

    Do we know if the aprilia stator is delta or Y configuration and does it matter to the compu-fire regulator?

  15. #315
    apriliaforum Junkie drouin955's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzmille View Post
    All very good thoughts except the rectifier does not dissipate heat from the alternator. The rectifier generates heat from the current supplied by the alternator and it certainly will do better if it can get rid of that heat but heat from the alternator does not travel to the rectifier.
    What I mean is; the excess current is transformed as heat in the R/R and the more heat the R/R is abe to dissipate the better. The stator that can get rid of the excess current will run cooler.

    posplayr is saying it differently:
    If the regulated output to the electrical system is the same, then the power not dissipated in the R/R is dissipated in the stator.
    By no means, I want to impose my view, all I want is to contribute to the collective brain storming if you will. Many have better understanding of things at the "theorical level". My knowledge is more of a hands-on type of things.
    Keep it up guys!

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