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Thread: Ricks Motorsports Stator Version 2 - Thicker next step wires

  1. #31
    apriliaforum expert theknurl's Avatar
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    30 years ago

    the incident i referred to was about 30 years ago.... now almost everyone has
    gone to the Harvard Business School / Madison Avenue model for businesses;

    hire engineers right out of college; they've never sharpened a pencil on their own....but they are good at video games

    use the cheapest components; think how much they saved on electrical connectors on our biked... what? $5 a bike

    hire programmers that know NOTHING about the fuel requirements of motors

    Never study history.....so you will be doomed to repeat it

    engineers are like male dogs they just have to piss on the fire hydrant, never mind that there was an engineering solution for the problem years ago.

    remember the words of Boss Kettering "parts left out never break and don't cost anything"

    believe in Murphy's Law.....the extra shit will bite you

    Chris look at the cush drive could it have more parts in it? its rotating unsprung weight the worst thing
    just Aprilia? Nope, all the Jap bike have similar anchors!

    why do bikes have remote reservoirs on the front brake and clutch?

    Yamaha R-1s & R-6s have a rubber washer BETWEEN the jam nuts on the steering stem!
    Yamaha OW-31s like Kenny Roberts rode the front of the motor is RUBBER mounted the rear is SOLID, it either breaks the frame or the cases!

    it takes 7 wrenches to change the oil & filters on my KTM!

    the spin on oil filter on a Moto Guzzi is IN the oil pan!

    my BMW 1150GS has ABS AND a mechanical speedo that the drive gear FALLS out of when you change tires!

    i'm a lifetime member of the Experimental Aircraft Assn.
    you know that private plane that flies over your house?
    the 4 cyl ones have a 3 bearing crankshaft
    the 6 cyl ones have 4

    but the crank has NO COUNTERWEIGHTS!!!!
    they are statically balanced in a dynamic world, and shake themselves apart!! where do you think locknuts came from?

    they put 4-24 inch long exhausts on them when they should be 8-9 feet long
    they need to wear hearing protection too!

    ever look inside the Packard Merlin out of a P-51 Mustang? combustion chamber looks like a can of car wax all the valves are parallel, designed to detonate.....so they added water/alcohol injection for 5 MINUTES of Emergency Military Power.....then you have to leave
    all this exhaust, supercharging and anti-detonation stuff was worked out in the '20s by Sir Henry Ricardo.....it was important enough that he was KNIGHTED for it!!

    Rheinflugzeugebau put a ring around the outside of a propeller and got 36% more thrust!!! does any body use the idea? nope

    Douglas Corp. put a 9 bladed prop on one side of an MD-10, got more thrust, better fuel economy and it was quieter......did they use it ? Nope, because nobody wants to fly in a plane with a propeller!!!!!!

    Don't know of Russ Collins????? he's in the Motorcycle Hall of Fame
    the designed, built and patented the machines for testing fuel injectors
    here's a link;
    http://www.rceng.com/history.aspx?Us...sFGgFcyPm0zzLg

    Check your MAP sensor hoses and the 1 to the FPR too!

    Noel-theknurl

  2. #32
    Graphicologist Extraordinaire ckruzel's Avatar
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    i agree. lots of people are book smart, but no common sense, its sad anymore
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  3. #33
    apriliaforum expert theknurl's Avatar
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    stators

    Quote Originally Posted by ckruzel View Post
    i agree. lots of people are book smart, but no common sense, its sad anymore
    Chris;
    its worse than that, there aren't even many people that are book smart....

    4th stator went in today, battery is totally dead, still waiting for the series regulator.....delayed by someone building a turbo bike for Bonneville and a few low speed tipovers, someone's mother-in-law dying etc
    nobody is charging me for their work or parts....so i can't squeek too loud

    Noel-theknurl

  4. #34
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    I attended a conference last week and took the opportunity to ask some questions about the best way to reduce heat in a permanent magnet alternator. If we can't use the series regulator and current must circulate in the stator windings at all times, we need to reduce i2r losses and eddy current losses. This is done two ways - larger diameter wires and thinner stator laminations of lower loss electrical steel. The lamination stack height should be the same as original, just with thinner lams. This will have the largest effect at high rpm when the frequency gets high. The other way to handle the heat developed in the stator is to transfer it - use a high thermal conductivity epoxy as insulation on the windings. I don't know if the Aprilia OEM stator uses a high thermal conductivity epoxy or not. Some electric motor manufacturers use this type of epoxy and some don't. It is expensive - about $8/lb. The high conductivity epoxy is rated for 180C continuous. The varnish on the magnet wire is rated for 200C. If someone would like to share this information with one of the aftermarket stator manufacturers, be my guest.
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  5. #35
    apriliaforum Junkie tdogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diablo1 View Post
    I attended a conference last week and took the opportunity to ask some questions about the best way to reduce heat in a permanent magnet alternator. If we can't use the series regulator and current must circulate in the stator windings at all times, we need to reduce i2r losses and eddy current losses. This is done two ways - larger diameter wires and thinner stator laminations of lower loss electrical steel. The lamination stack height should be the same as original, just with thinner lams. This will have the largest effect at high rpm when the frequency gets high. The other way to handle the heat developed in the stator is to transfer it - use a high thermal conductivity epoxy as insulation on the windings. I don't know if the Aprilia OEM stator uses a high thermal conductivity epoxy or not. Some electric motor manufacturers use this type of epoxy and some don't. It is expensive - about $8/lb. The high conductivity epoxy is rated for 180C continuous. The varnish on the magnet wire is rated for 200C. If someone would like to share this information with one of the aftermarket stator manufacturers, be my guest.

    So they don't recommend using a thinner lamination stack (total thickness)? I am trying to understand why the thinner lams would have an effect. Can you elaborate?
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdogg View Post
    So they don't recommend using a thinner lamination stack (total thickness)? I am trying to understand why the thinner lams would have an effect. Can you elaborate?
    Eddy currents circulate in each lamination in response to the changing magnetic field. A thinner lamination has lower core loss because it allows less eddy current circulation. This is the reason that all electromagnetic devices which operate with changing magnetic fields use lamination stacks for the core material and not a solid chunk of iron. This includes motors, alternators, and transformers. The laminations have an insulating coating at the surface so that eddy currents don't circulate between laminations. Electrical steels used for laminations are alloyed with silicon to increase the resistivity of the iron, and this also reduces eddy currents and core loss. The eddy currents produce waste heat and lower efficiency, so by reducing eddy currents your electrical machine runs cooler. Here's a link with a more detailed answer:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...s_/ai_n8755644
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  7. #37
    apriliaforum expert theknurl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rx7tt95 View Post
    I think the real solution is replacing the OEM regulator. We shouldn't be wasting time (and money) replacing stators. At the very least, be glad we don't have the Duc 1098 and 848 regulators. They seem to be popping at a fairly good rate leaving people stranded with no warning. I believe there's even a recall! Italians and electricity. They don't mix.
    its a Japanese rotor and Reg/Rec....not Italian

    Noel-theknurl

  8. #38
    apriliaforum Junkie tdogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diablo1 View Post
    Eddy currents circulate in each lamination in response to the changing magnetic field. A thinner lamination has lower core loss because it allows less eddy current circulation. This is the reason that all electromagnetic devices which operate with changing magnetic fields use lamination stacks for the core material and not a solid chunk of iron. This includes motors, alternators, and transformers. The laminations have an insulating coating at the surface so that eddy currents don't circulate between laminations. Electrical steels used for laminations are alloyed with silicon to increase the resistivity of the iron, and this also reduces eddy currents and core loss. The eddy currents produce waste heat and lower efficiency, so by reducing eddy currents your electrical machine runs cooler. Here's a link with a more detailed answer:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...s_/ai_n8755644
    Interesting read.

    Thanks!
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  9. #39
    apriliaforum expert theknurl's Avatar
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    temps and insulation

    if the good insulation is good for 180 C we have a problem the stator is turning a color indicating ~250 C
    kzmille put an infared pyrometer on the Aprilia and said the stator cover was the hottest spot!

    Noel-theknurl

  10. #40
    apriliaforum expert novos's Avatar
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    Noel ; would it be possible to route a line from the oil cooler to the stator? You'd technically be feeding it lower temp oils, thus helping keep the temp down?

    Or maybe putting a small, secondary oil cooler between the lowers, where the headers are in order for it to catch air, so the stator has a dedicated oil cooler for itself.

    Would that have any benefits? Short of that, I've thought about welding fins onto the stator cover as heat sinks to dissipate more temperature off that part of the engine


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  11. #41
    apriliaforum Junkie drouin955's Avatar
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    Exclamation Rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by theknurl View Post
    Guys its not the stator, its been around for 30+ years, its not the rec/regulator....
    its the combination of the type of regulator with the NEW ROTOR!!!!

    '98-'03 Aprilias had the same stator and regulator and did NOT fry stators


    the only thing that is different is the NEW ROTOR

    Noel-theknurl
    If so, then why not use the old rotor? They did not had problems then!

  12. #42
    apriliaforum expert theknurl's Avatar
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    cooling

    novos;
    the problem with trying to cool the stator with oil is we're not fixing the problem, the stator is making too much heat because the rotor has too much magnetism.

    well here's a message i just sent;
    hi Ted well i finally got the series reg/rec 40 Amp
    size;
    length 95mm
    width 65mm
    tall 42mm

    stator leads 190mm with a Packard Weather-Pack male connector.
    pos and neg leads 1.5m
    40Amp blade fuze and holder w/200mm lead
    of course i now need a Packard crimper

    since its taller than the stocker i need to find a place to mount it
    thinking on the inside of the inner fairing by the Immobilizer
    it'll fit inside the air intake on the top
    got any ideas?

    Noel-theknurl

    now i know about how hot the stator gets ~250 C, that's why my oil has always smelled burned, because is was burned

    hopefully this will cut the stator temp down electronically.....2 straws after that

    Noel-theknurl

  13. #43
    apriliaforum expert Reubens32's Avatar
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    Excellent thread! Please keep your input coming.

    In the mean time, I've added 360 miles since the last update for a new total of 920 Miles. No issues to report and all voltage numbers remain the same.

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  14. #44
    apriliaforum Junkie RumbleStrip's Avatar
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    i'm keeping tabs on this thread as well. the '04 RSV and '07 Tuono is my first attempt at aprilia and the only issue so far, is the stator on the RSV. my "rick's" stator is due wednesday and i'll run it until good info is logged from capt. knurl and we can address this thing head on.
    "....you have to live loud enough to make the world remember you, and sometimes you can do that without saying a word..."

  15. #45
    apriliaforum expert theknurl's Avatar
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    rotors

    Quote Originally Posted by drouin955 View Post
    If so, then why not use the old rotor? They did not had problems then!
    Denso/Aprilia should have replaced the rotor....but you are right, the old one will make electricty without melting the stator.

    the problem is there is a 'missing tooth' trigger on the outside of our '04+
    rotors..... this is how they "sync the TBs" by reading the 'timed MAP sensor values'.... its electronic mental masturbation
    the ECU probably will shut down without the trigger reading or at least only work in 'limp mode'.

    of course if the diameters are the same you could remove the trigger ring and index it to the keyway, spot weld it on and then rebalance it, but you would need to make sure that the rotor is not part of Aprilia's SUPER SECRET BALANCING FACTOR, the discussion of that was a 58 page thread!!!!

    don't worry that was my first thought as a way around Denso/Aprilia's screwup....but then old rotors would be as if they were gold and alot of good people would get left out...

    which is something i will not participate in

    Noel-theknurl
    Last edited by theknurl; 10-21-2008 at 10:43 PM.

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