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Thread: 6 stroke engine!

  1. #31
    apriliaforum Member
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    And for anyone one else who thinks this can't be done....it's a steam engine, been around for centuries. Check the back of your 20 notes....mr Stephenson is on there with his Rocket That worked, didn't it ?

  2. #32
    apriliaforum expert AndyS_RS's Avatar
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    3 ATM is nothing, compression pressure is over that let alone running pressure.

    Steam engines I agree are the most torquey of this bunch, but they dont lend themselves to the application here.

    and yes while they have been around a while, what superseeded them?

  3. #33
    apriliaforum expert williamr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metz
    And for anyone one else who thinks this can't be done....it's a steam engine, been around for centuries. Check the back of your 20 notes....mr Stephenson is on there with his Rocket That worked, didn't it ?
    It's not a steam engine. Steam engines inject high pressure steam into the cylinder from an external boiler. THey don't inject water and expect the residual heat in the cylinder to produce the steam.

    Rob

  4. #34
    apriliaforum expert williamr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metz
    In theory (laws of thermodynamics) water will provide a hell of a lot more power that fuel. But they provide it in different ways. Fuel does so by burning, and the speed of the burn (explosion) provides the power. With water, it's not the speed, but the increase in volume which provides the power.
    It's the increase in volume in both cases. Combustion causes rapid expansion of the gas/air mixture. The expansion creates pressure, which pushes down the piston. With water it's the combustion of the previous stroke that provides the heat energy to create the expansion in this engine.

    In a pure (external combustion) steam engine, it's the pressure of the steam entering the cylinder that drives the piston. Piston movement allows expansion, which lowers the pressure of the steam. In a compound engine the lower pressure steam can be re-used to drive a piston in a low pressure cylinder.

    Rob

  5. #35
    apriliaforum expert matt2301's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamr
    It's the increase in volume in both cases. Combustion causes rapid expansion of the gas/air mixture. The expansion creates pressure, which pushes down the piston. With water it's the combustion of the previous stroke that provides the heat energy to create the expansion in this engine.

    In a pure (external combustion) steam engine, it's the pressure of the steam entering the cylinder that drives the piston. Piston movement allows expansion, which lowers the pressure of the steam. In a compound engine the lower pressure steam can be re-used to drive a piston in a low pressure cylinder.

    Rob
    They just pass the steam through a cylinder with a larger bore don't they? To compensate for the lower pressure.
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  6. #36
    apriliaforum Member Dexy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamr
    It's the increase in volume in both cases. Combustion causes rapid expansion of the gas/air mixture. The expansion creates pressure, which pushes down the piston. With water it's the combustion of the previous stroke that provides the heat energy to create the expansion in this engine.
    ......

    Rob
    They increase the volume in two completely different ways. You could if you wanted reclaim the expanded steam after it condensed back into water. Once fuel has been mixed with air and ignited thats it. one is a chemical reaction and one thermodynamic process.

  7. #37
    apriliaforum Member Dexy's Avatar
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    if you could super heat the piston somehow with some sort of resistance technology powered by a solar panel and a wind farm attached to your back you could go back to four stroke technology and miss out the fueling part.

    On top of that change your exhaust from an exhaust to a super condensing tube you could then create an almost closed system powered completely by distilled water and green energy.

    Then you really could tell Mr Brown to go f*ck himself!!

  8. #38
    apriliaforum expert williamr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexy
    They increase the volume in two completely different ways. You could if you wanted reclaim the expanded steam after it condensed back into water. Once fuel has been mixed with air and ignited thats it. one is a chemical reaction and one thermodynamic process.
    So you advocate some form of dual exhaust system with a valve diverting gasses through the cat and steam through the condensor? I suppose that it could save seperate petrol and water tanks if you could make it work.

    The expansion of steam isn't actually a thermodynamic process except in the sense that it behaves as a gas under pressure, trying to expand and pushing the piston to do this, transferring its energy to that piston as it does so.

    One problem with this design that the residual heat from one combustion cycle is unlikely to be enough to generate the stem pressure required to do anything useful, and there would be no build up of residual heat over successive cycles as the water injection would immediately cool the combustion chambre/

    Matt - I'm no great expert on steam engines. Contrary to what some people believe my first bike had a petrol engine.

    Rob

  9. #39
    apriliaforum Member Dexy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by williamr
    So you advocate some form of dual exhaust system with a valve diverting gasses through the cat and steam through the condensor? I suppose that it could save seperate petrol and water tanks if you could make it work.

    .....

    Rob
    Sort of? I'm saying you could recreate the heat inside the cylindar via electronic resistance enmeded in the piston/making the piston like a giant glow plug. you could get rid of the fuel part of the process completely. Creating a completely green process. Obviously ignoring the manufacturing process of creating the bike/car/engine? I think cooling is going to be the problem. The condensor will have to have a fair size surface area.

  10. #40
    apriliaforum expert williamr's Avatar
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    Apart from the mechanical problems of turning the piston into a giant glow plug, where is the power to heat it going to come from.

    This idea would contravene the law of comservation of energy , so no, you can't do it.

    Rob

  11. #41
    apriliaforum Member Dexy's Avatar
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    As i said before solar panels. and a resisting unit embeded in either the piston or cylinder. you would only need to reach somewhere between 100-150 degrees. I'm not saying there arn't some kinks to be ironed out! It might have to be trialed in a lightwieght car before going to 2 wheels. But you could charge a battery/capacitor over night to give you the initial starting charge. We just need to find a sparky engineer to 'refine' the model!! lol

  12. #42
    apriliaforum expert williamr's Avatar
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    Dexy

    Your degree of ignorance of anything to do with either physics or engineering appears so great that it's impossible to explain to you why this won't work.

    Do you have the slightest idea how an engine works? Or how an electrical system works?

    Rob

  13. #43
    apriliaforum Member Dexy's Avatar
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    Rob, your narrowmindedness and lack of imagination is quite honestly sadening! If people dont try and experiment with unauthodox ideas nothing would happen. If you struggle to have a hypothetical debate on something i was obviosly just putting out there for the crack then what an uninteresting life you must lead! I bet you were one of the people that didn't think they could tunnel under the English chanel. Modern super conductors and insulators aren't anywhere near the capabilities of what i was pratling on about but they are lightyears away from what they used to be and are likely to get even better, it's called progressive development. Get a grip mate.

  14. #44
    apriliaforum expert williamr's Avatar
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    Dexy

    I'm in a Hi Tech industry and I'm into any form of advanced engineering. What you propose is simply in contravention of basic physics.

    I repeat my last post.

    Rob

  15. #45
    apriliaforum Member Dexy's Avatar
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    Rob

    Obviously in my field of engineering there is more of a laugh to be had when debating the inevitable 'if only we could do that?' arrises!

    My point still stands that sometimes you have to leave the realms of the percieved possible to return back to a more practical/physically possible but yet unauthodox solution. Shurely you must see at least some sense in that?

    Dexy

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