Oil issues

[rb450]

I have an 07 RXV550. I am having the oil leak issues everyone is talking about. It first appeared at the small hole below the spark plug at the rear cylinder. Oil light came on, Naturally I topped it off. Light went out, level was too high. Now oil is showing up between the cylinders as well as the rear "weep hole" Is this from overfilling, even though the sight tube indicates 1/2 way between min & max. Bike has not had first service yet. It is scheduled for Tuesday. I have riding plans for the weekend. I'm planning on just keeping an eye on the oil level, until Tuesday. Any ideas?

P.S. I love everything else about the bike. (except that you have to drill out bar ends to fit handguards.)

[Matthew Roche]

Hi There,
This is an issue we first noticed with the bike when they came to Europe. You have teh oil level filled too high in the oil can. The visible level indicator pipe at the front of the machine should only be filled to halfway with 1250cc-1300cc of oil. If you open teh top of your airbox and take out the filter, dip a screwdriver between teh bell mouths and you will have a pond of oil in there caused by the crankcase breather pipe dumping into the airbox, which inturn leaks down the cylinders. Just dont overfill and problem will go away.

:burnout:

[rb450]

I'll check it out when I get home from work, thanks for the input.

[waxxer]

I believe you need to check the oil level when the engine is hot. I know this to be true with my Tuono too. The engine oil tube never shows much oil until it is up to temp. Several times I was tempted to add oil but discovered that the sump was actually full.

[OZRS]

I believe you need to check the oil level when the engine is hot. I know this to be true with my Tuono too. The engine oil tube never shows much oil until it is up to temp. Several times I was tempted to add oil but discovered that the sump was actually full.

Yes, you definately need to check the oil level when the bike is hot. I always check the level with the bike upright as well (not on the stand) as the oil level tube is on the opposite side of the bike to the stand. This means it reads lower on the stand then when upright.

[irie]

You must check the oil with the engine hot, the bike level front/rear, and not tilted to one side.

The oil level should be no higher than about 10-15mm above the MINIMUM LEVEL MARK.

Do NOT put in more oil than this.

[rb450]

I just had the first service done yesterday, and I'm heading to Vermont this afternoon. We'll see how she works now that i can get on it a bit harder. The overfilled oil resevoir still doesn't explain the seepage from the tiny hole under the spark plug, which I am told is a drain for the plug?

[rb450]

I rode all weekend in VT. Bike is running great, but still leaking oil from small hole under the rear spark plug, and from the water pump cover.

[cyborg]

I read all the caveats on this forum about oil overfilling. Then I did the 300 mile engine oil change on my RXV550, followed the user manual procedure exactly, drained engine oil and replaced oil filter. Then I filled with exactly 1250cc of oil. Started and ran a few minutes and it once again pumped 200 to 300cc of oil right up into the airbox. This oil issue is a PIA and wasteful. 1250cc of oil is NOT supposed to be overfilling.

What the heck am I doing wrong? Is the oil tank not draining out completely? Thanks for any help on this.

[maico949]

Cyborg,
How much oil did you get out of it when you drained it?
Did you the drain the sump and the oil tank?
I think the manual only tells you to drain the sump.
If you only drained the sump you will probably only get 200 cc of oil out of it, as most of the oil is in the oil tank.
Sometimes when the bike sits and the oil pump sits open, the oil will drain from the oil tank into the sump. That's why you see no oil in your site glass. You have to start the engine up and get it warm to pump all the oil back into the oil tank and read the correct level. Some guys have obviously just been draining the sump then adding 1250 cc of oil and having lots of problems.
Hope this helps you with yours and anyone else with the same problem.
Regards
Gordon Maico 949

[rb450]

My oil level has been correct, checked warm, checked by the dealer,checked by me. It still leaks a wee bit from the water pump cover, and still leaks from the small hole on the side of the rear cylinder below the spark plug.:bangwall: It is not pushing through air box.

[cyborg]

Cyborg,
How much oil did you get out of it when you drained it?
Did you the drain the sump and the oil tank?
I think the manual only tells you to drain the sump.
If you only drained the sump you will probably only get 200 cc of oil out of it, as most of the oil is in the oil tank.
Sometimes when the bike sits and the oil pump sits open, the oil will drain from the oil tank into the sump. That's why you see no oil in your site glass. You have to start the engine up and get it warm to pump all the oil back into the oil tank and read the correct level. Some guys have obviously just been draining the sump then adding 1250 cc of oil and having lots of problems.
Hope this helps you with yours and anyone else with the same problem.
Regards
Gordon Maico 949

Thanks Gordon. After I posted this I remembered that on my DRZ-S, which also has an oil tank and drain in the same place, I had to drain the oil tank also for each oil change. I looked on the RXV and sure enough there is the oil tank drain, plain as day:

http://cyb.smugmug.com/photos/99983155-L.jpg

I'm suprised there's such an oversight in the user/maintenance manual. Like you said, depending on the position and/or seal of the oil pump rotors, the oil tank may or may not all drain out the bottom drain plug. Lesson learned. I'll have to do my oil change over again because the new oil got contaminated by the old oil that was left over.

[duc slayer]

it's a bit messy, but not to bad unless you can bend up a small piece of tin to route the oil down to your pan

[cyborg]

it's a bit messy, but not to bad unless you can bend up a small piece of tin to route the oil down to your pan

Yep. I still have a special semi-funnel I made for the DRZ-S that will work perfectly.

[cyborg]

Update: I drained all the engine oil out again last night, including the oil tank drain. I also rinsed the oil slime from the airbox with a mild solvent and it drained out the airbox drain. Then I filled up with the precise amount the manual says 1250cc and the fill tube showed right in the middle of MIN & MAX. In running it 30 miles so far today no oil blowoff. I think that was the "overfill" issue, the manual simply left out draining the oil tank drain.

The oil tank drain BTW is not real easy to get at with the radiator crossover hose in the way. I pushed a 1/2" drive socket-allen into the drain plug, then snaked a thin 6" x 1/4" drive extender with 1/4 to 1/2 adapter under the hose and into the socket and was able to turn it properly. A 1/2" drive would also work under the hose with a flex adapter. So, oil overfill issue solved (I hope)

I wonder if some people's hard starting is sometimes due to all the oil being burped up into the airbox when they are commonly overfilled.

I also did the gearbox oil. The manual doesn't say how much oil it takes (or I couldnt find it) so I filled until the inspection hole weeped oil, I think around 500cc. I didn't need to remove the gear shift lever or the brake lever to get at the gearbox drain and inspection bolts, as the manual states is needed.

[waxxer]

Update: I drained all the engine oil out again last night, including the oil tank drain. I also rinsed the oil slime from the airbox with a mild solvent and it drained out the airbox drain. Then I filled up with the precise amount the manual says 1250cc and the fill tube showed right in the middle of MIN & MAX. In running it 30 miles so far today no oil blowoff. I think that was the "overfill" issue, the manual simply left out draining the oil tank drain.

The oil tank drain BTW is not real easy to get at with the radiator crossover hose in the way. I pushed a 1/2" drive socket-allen into the drain plug, then snaked a thin 6" x 1/4" drive extender with 1/4 to 1/2 adapter under the hose and into the socket and was able to turn it properly. A 1/2" drive would also work under the hose with a flex adapter. So, oil overfill issue solved (I hope)

I wonder if some people's hard starting is sometimes due to all the oil being burped up into the airbox when they are commonly overfilled.

I also did the gearbox oil. The manual doesn't say how much oil it takes (or I couldnt find it) so I filled until the inspection hole weeped oil, I think around 500cc. I didn't need to remove the gear shift lever or the brake lever to get at the gearbox drain and inspection bolts, as the manual states is needed.

You have the drill down. The manual left out a crucial step that will get lots of people in trouble--draining the oil bag. I too did not remove the brake or shifter.

I managed to get about 550 CCs of gear oil in. You may want to check it after a few miles and the oli has worked it way into the clutch.

As far as engine oil goes, I also had to add a bit after running it in. I figure it is around 1300 ML. Then again I ran mine, got it good and hot and let the oil drain for an hour before replacing.

Glad to see you are enjoying the bike!:cheers:

[e46mthree]

not done an oil change yet... but i see from "TECHNICAL NOTE No. 012-2006 12-06-2006" (thanx slorider!!!) it states:

"Engine oil tank: Start engine and let it run for 5/8 minutes. When the oil reservoir is warm (engine temperature about 70°/80°), place the motorcycle upright and ensure the oil level is about halfway between the MIN and MAX marks on the oil reservoir."

and from my "use+maintenancebook" (1st ed MAY06) it states:

"NOTE: To warm the engine and have the engine oil reach the operating temperature ride the vehicle for a while (10-15 min), then let the engine idle with the vehicle at rest for at least 30 seconds, and stop the engine
- Keep the vehicle in vertical position, with the two wheels resting on the ground.
-Check oil level through clear hose (1).
-The level is correct when the oil almost reaches the MAX mark."

so... with that said it appears that Aprilia revised their procedure between May and June. but most notable is that the (newer) tech note does NOT mention to "stop" the bike... so... to stop or not to stop?

secondly, as a owner of a vintage BSA (w/ dry sump), i'm well aware of what is called "wetsumping" - i.e. when a normally "dry" sump, fills with an abnormal amount of oil (while either running or while stored). although seen as a anomaly in old designs, can this be (intentionally) occuring in the SXV/RXVs??? futhermore my "use+maintenancebook" later states:

"CHANGING ENGINE OIL AND OIL FILTER

...Stop the engine and let it coldown to allow the oil to flow into the crankcase and to cool..."

regarding the old brit bikes - two things happen after starting a bike that has "wetsumped" - 1) they smoke like hell burning off the oil that gets flung again the cylinder (partly due to poor oil ring cleaning - not as important in a dry sump) & 2) they puke oil out the breather (running motor has to pump it somewhere)

so... questions

1) check oil with bike running or not?
2) does aprilia count on (by design) the bike "wetsumping" (i.e. the oil tank draining) for the oil change?
3) does "wetsumping" (i.e. oil puke) explain any of the airbox oil?

thoughts?

[SLORider]

so... questions

1) check oil with bike running or not?
2) does aprilia count on (by design) the bike "wetsumping" (i.e. the oil tank draining) for the oil change?
3) does "wetsumping" (i.e. oil puke) explain any of the airbox oil?

First of all, let me say that I don't think the minor descrepancies between the Maintenence book and Tech Note are important (such as running the engine 5-8 minutes vs 10-15 minutes). This is likely just a different person writing on a different day. I do consider such lack of consistency to be unprofessional and confusing, however! Also, the Tech Note's mention of engine temperature at 70-80 degrees should indicate Celsius (158-176 F)! Poor technical writing for sure!

1) Engine running or not?

I believe the Tech Note's failure to specify this is because it is written for mechanics and engine stopped is normal common sense. To check oil level with the engine running would be strange and certainly would be mentioned. I don't think you should "read into" the Tech Note anything that isn't specific.

Second, I don't think it matters if the engine is running or not anyway. This is because in a dry sump system oil is returned to the reservoir by a scavenging pump. Running the engine causes the scavenging pump to remove excess oil (your "wetsumping") and return it to the reservoir. At this point, the engine sump is as "dry" as it gets as oil is scavenged and returned to the reservoir as soon as it returns to the engine sump from the lubrication circuits. Stopping the engine at this point does not raise or lower the reservoir oil level because you have stopped both the lubrication pump and the scavenge pump! Oil may drain into the engine sump from the engine lubrication circuits, but this does not affect the reservoir level.

THEREFORE, I SAY USE NORMAL METHODS AND CHECK OIL LEVEL WITH ENGINE OFF. TO DO OTHERWISE WOULD CERTAINLY BE SPECIFIED.

The descrepancy of "about halfway between MIN and MAX" and "almost reaches the MAX mark" I also attribute to poor consistency. First of all, the use of the word "about" in the first phrase indicates exact level is non-critical. The individual who wrote the tech note obviously prefers to err on the high side. In a prior post, "irie" wrote level should be no higher than 10-15 mm above the minimum mark. Obviously, erring on the lower side reduces problems with oil in the air box. Any of the above are as good as "about halfway between" if you ask me!

2) Does Aprilia count on "wetsumping" (oil reservoir draining back through the scavenge pump) for oil changes?

That seems unlikely to me. Close tolerance modern designs would not tend to drain back at all, or at least for a long period of time. More likely to me is an omission of draining the oil reservoir in the Maintenence book. It specifically states, however, that adding 1250 ml of oil is appropriate. If you don't drain it all, you can't add it back--so drain it!!!

3) Does "wetsumping" explain any of the air box oil?

SEEMS VERY PLAUSIBLE TO ME! It's always a good idea to let your engine idle for a minute to warm-up, circulate the oil and give time for the scavenge pump to scavenge the engine sump. Keeping your oil level on the lower side of full (as "irie" suggests) might reduce problems also.

BOTTOM LINE is everyone here tries different things and when success is noted, then we can all benefit. For sure, the manual is not always right!

[e46mthree]

After posting my rambling i did some more googling and found MANY posts on this very forum (and others), though for other dry sump aprilias (et al.). Though this forum's "search" seems to be having probs (webmaster notified), a google search of "site:apriliaforum.com oil level" (or similar) will yield plenty of opinions as this, although new to me, is apparently an old & endless aprilia debate/discussion.

I’m still really not sure if, by design, the tank is supposed to (expected to) drain into the sump while sitting or not. i've also not been able to experiment (yet) with oil level sighting w/ & w/o the bike running - but i will. i would expect that the level should be checked with either the bike running OR IMMEDIATELY after it is shut off. Either way checking oil level at the "sump" vs. at the oil tank would seem to require a somewhat dynamic condition - i.e. oil circulating and in the places it is expected to be.

Back to the old brit bikes - oil level is checked in the oil tank - and it is only required to keep it above some minimal level - a pretty rough check. I suppose there is not even a predictable minimal level maintained in the sump itself to be reliably checked. Not being an engine engineer, it would seem the tank would be a better place to check in order to (only) ensure sufficient oil is available for circulation…

Of course the most prudent way to ensure the oil level at oil change would be to measure the amount taken out – and ensure the right amount is replaced – whether that requires draining the tank separately or not I’m not sure (though it would ensure most all the oil is removed). When i get to my first oil change i will also experiment and see, once the sump itself is drained, IF oil continues to drain (say overnight) - indicating the sump will eventually drain into the sump.

But again why aprilia, after building such a phenomenal bike, continues with such poor, unprofessional, & ambiguous documentation is a real mystery… Especially w/ aprilia's newfound $ it is surprising such random and confusing documentation exists, let alone is propagated to customers...

ernie

[altaic]

I drained some oil from the engine due to the overflow issue. Should I have drained off the oil reservoir instead, or does it not matter? This didn't occur to me until now since the reservoir isn't mentioned in the manual for oil changes.

[SLORider]

I drained some oil from the engine due to the overflow issue. Should I have drained off the oil reservoir instead, or does it not matter? This didn't occur to me until now since the reservoir isn't mentioned in the manual for oil changes.
Doesn't matter which. The engine sump pumps into the reservoir, so either way you lowered the oil level.

See this: Wet Sump vs Dry Sump (http://www.lubrifiants.elf.fr/lub/lubroot.nsf/VS_SWIPUC/8EBF557EA0A8B05FC1256EE10036DB8E?OpenDocument&UNI=688A60D20AE2F9D9C1256EF3004DB954&)

[cyborg]

I drained some oil from the engine due to the overflow issue. Should I have drained off the oil reservoir instead, or does it not matter? This didn't occur to me until now since the reservoir isn't mentioned in the manual for oil changes.

As SLOrider mentioned, there are two pumps that circulate the oil. There is no guarantee how much oil is in the engine sump at any one time. Draining oil from the main engine will reduce overall oil level because the oil tank will eventually lower that amount when it runs, but sometimes you might only be able to drain 200 to 500cc from the engine sump. Draining ALL the oil seems to be the best way to reliably change and fill the oil. The local Aprilia dealer mechanics say they check oil level with the bike running because both oil pumps are doing their job and the system is relatively stable. I think checking level just after shutting down would be fine too because not much oil will have drained back into the main engine from the oil tank. My complete oil drain, 1250cc fillup has remained stable for a few days of riding, no blowoff into the airbox and right in the middle of min & max stopped.

Yes the docs are inconsistent, the warranty marginal and short, parts scarce, but damn what a bike eh? We put up with the pain:bangwall: for the reward! :cheers:

[RXV_Poor]

I talked to my dealer and they told me the same thing about draining the engine oil. Drain the tank then the engine. When filling the engine they said to lean the bike over and fill the oil filter first. Seal it then put the rest in the tank. They also told me to use the weep hole as a gauge for the tranny when filling.

[altaic]

I'm unfamiliar with the weep hole. Where is it?

[altaic]

See this: Wet Sump vs Dry Sump (http://www.lubrifiants.elf.fr/lub/lubroot.nsf/VS_SWIPUC/8EBF557EA0A8B05FC1256EE10036DB8E?OpenDocument&UNI=688A60D20AE2F9D9C1256EF3004DB954&)

Ah, simple yet informative. Thanks.

[cyborg]

I'm unfamiliar with the weep hole. Where is it?

In the Use+Maintenance Book, page 3-39, second pix down -or- that little round-head allen bolt just behind the rear brake lever between the engine case hex head bolts.