PDA

View Full Version : can't turn right



JDRSV
02-14-2012, 07:16 AM
G'day.
I have a little problem.
After 7 years road riding
12 years dirt bike riding
and a season and a half of Club racing.
I still suck at right handers.
Lefts feel very natural, but rights just feels awkward. body postion, no matter what I change feels wrong, like I'm trying to pull the bike over.

Recently got a new dirt bike and really like it, I can turn the bike on the throttle left very well, can get the back to slide smoothly using body english and only a little throttle, but, rights I seem to be pulling the right bar back and down as I wind the throttle on (opposite to counter steering) which makes the front push.
I may be doing the same on the road.
On the track I dont notice the difference so much, but I have had only 1 off on a left turn on a drying track but had about 6 offs on rights.

on the road I feel a lot more stable on lefts while also taking a given turn faster and with more lean angle.

I have done CSS levels 1 and 2 and a couple other courses but the problem remains.

I know there are a lot of good riders and races on here and would really appreciate any advice, or a technique I could practice.

Cheers

Tomintoul
02-14-2012, 07:51 AM
You mean you're not an ambi-turner?

TheSwede
02-14-2012, 08:09 AM
Here's a good site that might contain something useful:

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/#leaning

But one trick I've used is to lift your inside foot of the peg completely and then steer ONLY by pushing with the palm of you inside hand. This is enforces the proper cornering technique and weight load, you might have learned this at CSS but if not it might work.

It might also have something to do with your eyes, looking where we want to go is the most powerful tool we have.

You could also try altering the way you grip the throttle, grip it "earlier" if you know what I mean so that you don't twist down so much when you open it up at the corner exit.

klavdy
02-14-2012, 08:53 AM
Move to Australia or England for a while.
It will force you to turn right correctly.
A lot of it has to do with the way you perceive the "feel" of the crown of the road.

TheSwede
02-14-2012, 08:55 AM
Move to Australia or England for a while.
It will force you to turn right correctly.
A lot of it has to do with the way you perceive the "feel" of the crown of the road.

It might be the coriolis effect, try Australia!

aceyx
02-14-2012, 01:21 PM
You have a dominant side which is normal. Train stabilizer muscles and for even strength on both sides of your body (free weights), it will make your posture more symmetric and it will feel less weird.

jpe70
02-14-2012, 01:33 PM
The most silly thing; check placement of your right elbow. Is it about same as your left when turning that way? (relative your knee). One way is harder as others write, but usually not extremely so.

JAndrewG
02-14-2012, 03:02 PM
Ever thought about a career in Nascar? :)

JDRSV
02-14-2012, 03:58 PM
Ever thought about a career in Nascar? :)

:funnypost I have thought of trying speedway.

And as for moving to Australia like some have mentioned.
I'm Already there

coriolis effect, LOL

Thanks for the feed back, changing how I grip the throttle may be something to look at.

Cheers

naimchase
02-14-2012, 07:21 PM
changing how I grip the throttle may be something to look at.
Consider this.

I used to have more trouble in right turns than in left.
In 1984 I sustained a track injury that prevents me from reaching for the front brake or using my wrist to turn the throttle.
Since then, I always ride with three fingers covering the front brake and roll the throttle with my thumb.
This means I cannot pull or twist the right bar.
It is an effort to be smooth with tiny throttle changes, but my right turns are much better.

You will have to find some mental or physical trick to change the forces you put into the bar.
Good luck.

rs250slowpoke
02-14-2012, 07:41 PM
I have the exact same problem, but with left turns. Body position on bike feels unnatural and akward. Right handers no problem. Can go much faster, more lean angle, etc. Ive tried moving around the bike differently and nothing fixes it. Pics of me on track in left handers are nearly upright. Maybe its mental? I have had couple big offs going lefy. Perhaps I need a shrink ?

scubacat
02-14-2012, 08:17 PM
I too have issues with right hand turns....feel "all off". I think it's just a mental thing...

JDRSV
02-14-2012, 08:19 PM
Consider this.

I used to have more trouble in right turns than in left.
In 1984 I sustained a track injury that prevents me from reaching for the front brake or using my wrist to turn the throttle.
Since then, I always ride with three fingers covering the front brake and roll the throttle with my thumb.
This means I cannot pull or twist the right bar.
It is an effort to be smooth with tiny throttle changes, but my right turns are much better.

You will have to find some mental or physical trick to change the forces you put into the bar.
Good luck.


You may have something there.
I broke my right wrist on the dirtbike a year before getting my first roadie.
There was 1 particular left corner at our local track where I did roll the throttle with my fingers and it worked well.
Have never used this technique on the road and haven't had the ape on the track yet.
This might me worth a bit of practise.

Thanks

JDRSV
02-14-2012, 08:27 PM
Well I leave on Saturday for an approx 7000km trip
so there will be lots of time to practise.

Peter S
02-14-2012, 09:56 PM
I am left handed and am more comfortable when turning right. I had often wondered whether this was 'normal' so I asked all my mates if they cornered better one way than the other. All the right handers said they preferred left turns. The only other left hander I have met said he prefers right turns! Curious how many agree with me.
After viewing track day pics of myself in action I noticed I sat further back and more upright on the bike when turning left so I now make a conscious effort to get my head further forward and keep the weight over the front wheel. This has helped a lot as it tends to stop the bike running wide. Hope this helps.

twin4me
02-15-2012, 04:40 AM
I'm a lefty and I'd rather turn right as well...

williamr
02-15-2012, 06:44 AM
Move to Australia or England for a while.
It will force you to turn right correctly.
A lot of it has to do with the way you perceive the "feel" of the crown of the road.

Might be right. I'm more comfortable on right turns, but I put that down to being able to take all the load of my left bar, while on a left turn I still have to grip the throttle on the right.

Rob

klavdy
02-15-2012, 08:30 AM
Ok, I see you're up in Brisvegas.
Try finding a good roundabout , there's some out near Vic Point shops that are near deserted on a weekend so try belting around one a fair few times till you lose the mental block.

Croak
02-15-2012, 11:25 AM
Maybe it's your road experience? Right turns for you means you're leaning towards oncoming traffic and that tends to inhibit things, plus taking a later apex on a right hander means pointing her off the road which can be scary, and more prone to target fixation. Making a left-hander feels safer because you have the bike between your head and oncoming traffic, you have a whole extra lane if you really need it, and you're much less likely to target fixate on a pavement stripe than you are say, that tree or guardrail on the right-hander.

To make it worse, if you have a lot of car experience, there's that disconnect of being on the inside of a right turn and on the outside of a left turn that no longer applies when on a bike...your visual centers are used to that offset when judging what line to take (even in daily driving), and that "automatic" response could be causing you problems when on two wheels.

For anyone else following along, swap right for left if you're not in the UK/Aus/NZ/JP, etc.

\/va/\twisted
02-15-2012, 04:07 PM
I'm a lefty and I'd rather turn right as well...

:plus:

devulge
02-15-2012, 04:21 PM
I was told it is the US and the side of the road we drive on. We always have a larger radius when turning left so right hand turns seem smaller and play tricks on our mind. I can't lean as far going right, I can't get comfortable in my body position either. I have made small improvements and this is by keeping my head correctly and pulling with my left hand. On left hand turns I can push with my left but turning the throttle and pushing just doesn't happen for me mentally.
You are not alone. The best idea by far was moving to UK or AUS as you would have to adjust to more right hand turns as a part of daily life.

zgriders
02-15-2012, 06:10 PM
maybe practice on a track that has mostly right-hand turns...like Willow Springs or Streets of Willow in California.
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=183694&d=1329347270

JDRSV
02-15-2012, 06:59 PM
maybe practice on a track that has mostly right-hand turns...like Willow Springs or Streets of Willow in California.
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=183694&d=1329347270


the tracks I have ridden the most has 4 r and 2 left and the other 7r and 4 l.

It is more of a problem on the road then the track


going for a ride tomorrow so I have some things I want to try.

I think croak may have a point about leaning into oncoming traffic. may have me a little spooked.

rs250slowpoke
02-15-2012, 11:30 PM
I agree. Something about leaning my body / head into a turn with a car whizzing by just a few feet away has gotten me spooked too. Now that I think ive found the problem how do I fix it?

rs250slowpoke
02-15-2012, 11:32 PM
BTW, swwwweeeetttt pic ZG. One of my favorite turns. @ SOW.

Croak
02-16-2012, 12:19 AM
My self cure (North America, so left-handers) was simply forcing myself to make a later apex. By going deeper it puts more distance between you and the oncoming lane, and gets you leaning a lot further on that side by necessity, further desensitizing you to the anxiety. Before too long, it becomes habit rather than force of will, and all is good in the world.

Jimbobvfr
02-16-2012, 10:32 AM
<similar story> during some wet-weather training, I kept noticing that I couldn't lean to the right. No probs to the left, but rt? no way. Looking around, and realized that my left inside thigh was sore. My "protective" lef was pushing up and I was pushing down. I solved it by taking my rt foot off the peg, slightly, during rt turns - made the difference. I was able to comfortably lean more(no crashy) and my leg didn't hurt. Now, when I'm riding and I notice the rt turn thing, I left my foot and it makes all the difference.
to continue the story - my students would also notice left or rt easier. My long and humorous story ended with the quote "If you have trouble going to the right, you need to practice more going to the right". Then I would ask them to evaluate and tell my weak side. They were usually hard-pressed to discover it...

rs250slowpoke
02-16-2012, 12:44 PM
Jimbob, so youre saying that you would lift right foot off peg for right turns? Seems like you would want to weight it more to get it to turn easier.

JDRSV
02-16-2012, 03:28 PM
Jimbob, so youre saying that you would lift right foot off peg for right turns? Seems like you would want to weight it more to get it to turn easier.

I think what happens is that in a right turn you should be holding on with your left thight/foot, by taking your right foot off the peg you force this, otherwise you end up holding on to the bars and not relaxing, I remember on a css school they had a bike on a stand and we had a go at handing off the side off the bike and only holding on with your legs/feet no hands touching the bike.

Jimbobvfr
02-16-2012, 04:44 PM
Jimbob, so youre saying that you would lift right foot off peg for right turns? Seems like you would want to weight it more to get it to turn easier.

Probably the most insulted I've ever been was when I told Keith Code about weighting or unweighting the footpeg during a turn - he looked me square in the face and said, "pushing on the peg to initiate a turn is like pushing on the dashboard in a car"...
I was quite taken aback by that remark. I thought about it alot. I've had plenty of times to talk to him about it, including when he conducted his Military Superbike School at Camp Pendleton.
What I did wasn't to "unweight" the peg, it was just to keep my schizophrenic rt leg from interferring with my turn. The foot pushes the peg which tenses the leg which moves the rest of the body out of line for the turn.
I KNOW I've seen somebody talk about "weighting" a peg, but darned if I could find it later.
As I've continued my training, I learned that at higher speeds, its more about "pulling" the bike thru the turn than pushing it. Take a look at Stoner. With his completely off the bike position, there's no way he could push from that angle. Instead, he's going so fast that force(I won't get into the discussion of centripital vs, centrifugal) wants to push the bike out and he's "pulling" it thru.
I'm not that good, so what i have to work on is correcting that tendency.
to add to JD's comment - picture this. Willow Springs last big loooong turn - completely leaned over, 4th gear RSVR is around 9k, at 100 or so. You are completely off the bike as much as you can and its waaay over. I feel the back end slipping a bit, but I know that to let off would be suicide, I stay on the power, then I notice that 3 fingers of my left hand are
just comfortably reaching around the grip. No deathgrip, or clenching for some cliffhanging exercise, just kind of lightly being there. I look slightly to the right thru the 1/3 mile turn and wind the throttle on a bit more - smoootthhhh and relaxed.

LowFlyer
02-16-2012, 05:27 PM
like many here I had same problem runing righthanders....for a while I subscribed it to crown of the road which is pretty steep on back roads where I mostly ride...
couple of buddies bserved me on a ride and it turns out I did not position my elbow properly since my grip on throttle was too rigid......after consciously relaxing elbow and lowering it just as on the left (while going more forward and right with body), voila perfect feel in righthanders too.....
additionally, I happen to know my usual roads very well....tight righthanders through wood canyons do not offer same visibility into corner so naturally we are more apprehensive t lean with same confidence into them.....but once you know them very well and know the line of corner beyond the sight line it all seems easier

I have all pressure firmly on outside pegs as well with outside thigh on tank and inside foot with the ball on the peg.....

JDRSV
02-16-2012, 07:39 PM
just had a short ride.
And I think taking weight off the right peg in right turns helps,
as soon as I take a bit of weight comes off my right I feel my left knee grip the tank better, and my arm relax
Will keep trying a few things as well as this a bit more

zgriders
02-17-2012, 08:44 AM
just had a short ride.
And I think taking weight off the right peg in right turns helps,
as soon as I take a bit of weight comes off my right I feel my left knee grip the tank better, and my arm relax
Will keep trying a few things as well as this a bit more

183797

183796

rmason
02-18-2012, 07:26 PM
I'm from the UK and I find my right turns are more comfortable than my left turns, I guess everyone just has a favourite side. At the end of the day if your turning is effective but it just doesn't feel 'right', then the problem is probably just psychological. And once you believe it, you start looking for reasons to reinforce the belief.

Personally I just took to doing big 'ol anti-clockwise circles in an empty car park until I was happy with my left turns. Doesn't bother me as much these days. Sometimes I put pressure on the right peg to make the bike feel more stable. A tip I got from Keith Code's 'A twist of the wrist'. Don't actually know if it helps physically, but it does put my mind at ease. :D

Just to be clear -> Left turn, pressure on right peg. Right turn, pressure on left peg.

Although I recently read that a famous racer used to let the back slide out by doing the opposite. Braking the rear wheel traction by putting pressure on the inside peg. I forget the name...

zgriders
02-18-2012, 09:40 PM
I'm from the UK and I find my right turns are more comfortable than my left turns, I guess everyone just has a favourite side. At the end of the day if your turning is effective but it just doesn't feel 'right', then the problem is probably just psychological. And once you believe it, you start looking for reasons to reinforce the belief.

Personally I just took to doing big 'ol anti-clockwise circles in an empty car park until I was happy with my left turns. Doesn't bother me as much these days. Sometimes I put pressure on the right peg to make the bike feel more stable. A tip I got from Keith Code's 'A twist of the wrist'. Don't actually know if it helps physically, but it does put my mind at ease. :D

Just to be clear -> Left turn, pressure on right peg. Right turn, pressure on left peg.

Although I recently read that a famous racer used to let the back slide out by doing the opposite. Braking the rear wheel traction by putting pressure on the inside peg. I forget the name...


That would be Scott Russell (Mr Daytona)...
"He weighted the inside footpeg to break the rear tire loose, then weighted the outside peg to get it to hook back up."

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/howto/122_0610_20_pro_motorcycle_roadracing_tips/index.html

devulge
02-21-2012, 11:12 AM
I've studied those professional photos and analyzed my riding and it comes down to my elbow positioning. I keep my elbow in on left hand turns and have it out on right hand turns because I find it easier to get on the throttle so I'm going to have to make some adjustments and just get used to the proper position. The pros have their forearm close to the tank so maybe I'll try that and see if it doesn't force my body into the correct position.

JDRSV
02-21-2012, 08:06 PM
zgriders.
I'm trying to work out what you mean with the pics, am I missing something?
not being a smart arse, genuine question.

Anyway I have just done over 2000km since saturday on some of the best roads in OZ, 'am improving on the rights but still not yet second nature, feeling more confident which lets me turn in later instead of trying to apex too early, which is what I was doing.
Also tried changing my grip on the throttle but this was difficult to maintain a stable action on the throttle in the twistys, but on the boring hwy it helps rest my wrist.

Peter S
02-21-2012, 10:03 PM
As I said earlier it is because you unconsciously tend to lean away from least favourite turning direction. This unloads the inside handle bar and causes the bike to want to run wide. Some people try and compensate by turning too early!
Make the effort to lean more forward and slightly over the inside handlebar (as Lowflyer also suggested). I heard an instructor call it 'kissing your inside mirror'.Even though you probably don't notice it you have gained more leverage on the inside bar and are also pushing it more forward without noticing. This makes the bike turn more easily. The difference should be quite evident. Also try to keep your elbow tucked in a bit. This also gives you more power to push the handlebar.

zgriders
02-21-2012, 11:51 PM
zgriders.
I'm trying to work out what you mean with the pics, am I missing something?
not being a smart arse, genuine question.

Anyway I have just done over 2000km since saturday on some of the best roads in OZ, 'am improving on the rights but still not yet second nature, feeling more confident which lets me turn in later instead of trying to apex too early, which is what I was doing.
Also tried changing my grip on the throttle but this was difficult to maintain a stable action on the throttle in the twistys, but on the boring hwy it helps rest my wrist.

Everyone will have their own style of riding, but the best riders seem to ride the bike with some similarities...they weight the outside peg to put more downward pressure/load on the tires for grip, and they hang-off (which pushes the bike up) rather than hang-on (which pulls the bike down). Also, there is no real safe apex on the canyon road or street, since the bike and rider will be leaned over the opposite lane or onto guardrails...however, the real apex of a turn can be safely reached only on a racetrack.

It is good to always try changing your techniques to adapt to the road/track or bike...Casey Stoner has explained many times how each corner is different, so he will take a different approach...for example, not all right-hand corners are the same, so he will adjust his riding style to accommodate the corner and the type of machine he is riding. I guess that is why riding a motorcycle can almost be an art in itself.

BTW: I have noticed that most dirt-trackers will spread their elbows out more (position their hand on the throttle like a screw-driver on right turns), but the former 125cc roadracers will often times tuck their elbows in at full lean for some corners (but not always).
184119

Also, if you slow down more before reaching the corner, the turn-points will be much easier to find (rather than the "panicked early turn", which is what most riders and drivers do when they falsely perceive that they cannot make the corner if they don't turn the vehicle now.)

SF2DieHard
02-21-2012, 11:53 PM
I want to drop my elbows out so they drag along the ground and show what a Super Stud I am. Then I woke up.

DM

JDRSV
02-22-2012, 04:45 AM
never suggested that there is a "safe apex" on canyon roads, just that turning in to early gives us a fasle sence of safety, that was what explained to me on a css school.

Peter S I know what you mean about unconciously leaning away from the corner taking weight off my inside foot has allowed me to lean in nicely, it is coming together.

Agree with you zg about ridng being like an art, and while I will never be great at it, one of the things I love about riding and us riders is that we are always trying to improve our riding.