Project: Vespa 300 SUPER (should end up living up that name)

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well here it is, my recently delivered (without keys) 2010 Vespa 300 Super in gloss black, it was a dealer re-crated bike and returned to PGA "as new". Since it came with no keys I currently have no way of knowing the exact mileage but the ECU, lockset, and good keyset I have are now off to the hacker's for code extraction, re-key-ing and cloning, I simply was not prepared to pay the asking price for a complete new ecu/lock set. My actual cost even as a dealer was still a rather offensive number.

She is a beauty, even if in that "diamond in the rough" sort of way. Obviously some body and paint work will be required as the project enters it's final phases but long before I worry about that I am certain some cutting and welding on the stock sheet metal will occur anyway. I asked for a damaged one, for cheap, and PGA delivered. I doubt it has more than 100 miles on it. I have been wanting to play seriously with an EFI 250-300 Vespa for a long time as most of you know but they only come and go as far as demo units and customer bikes so it is hard for me to learn things like "how long does it take for closed loop to learn a new config...etc...".

Gloss Black, like my heart and my Benz!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=181388&d=1327350122

So this will be a different sort of project to make it have value to more Vespa/MP3/SC250-300 owners. I am not going straight to a big valve head, cam, and turbo, this will be done in bite sized little chunks.

Step 1: Make run as is, allow 600 miles for ecu to learn STFT and LTFT trims and then onto the dyno dead stock.
Step 2: My "Micah" airbox mod (with detailed pics) to see what exactly that gain, I have done the mod many times and know it works but have never been able to test that mod alone
Step 3: Pipe testing, I own both the Leo and Akro pipes
Step 4: Malossi head kit, probably not going to do the cam since the cam spec was not a huge difference between what I measured from a stock cam to the Malossi cam and posted in a previous thread.
I may have a change of heart about cam and piston I choose to use, the stock setup is perfect for boost, dished piston at .8mm squish
Step 5: Optional, possibly a Malossi cam and piston test
Step 6: Tuning, make this naturally aspirated version of the motor run as well as possible, this is a MUST since serious tuning will be required once we move onto "the final solution". I have both a way to manipulate the closed and open loop portion of the load range.
Step 7: Boost, either turbocharged or supercharged with an AMR 300/500 blower (it is called a Super after all). I love turbos because they use wasted energy to make more power and work perfect on a CVT equipped scooter, since you are always at 6k rpm or better there will be little lag really. Blowers however are friggin' awesome too, nothing beats 10-15 psi of boost from idle to redline....decisions that need not be made too rash! Once boosted in either manner a water/methanol system will be required for intercooling, as will some serious fuels testing.


Please add your thoughts, while this may be my project I want EVERYONE to learn as much as possible during the course of the event. If I have overlooked something of importance to you please comment in this thread and I will try to make it happen, or test it, and if you have advice I am always open to listening, not that I will take it BUT, I will listen and think on it!

Once power gets a little more serious than stock levels, injector testing and pump testing will be required as well, as well as a return to the older "return style" EFI system since I like my fuel nice and cool and constantly recirculated. I have several injectors to test but need the MP3 400cc injector and an MP3 500cc injector for this portion of the learning experience, if you have a spare sitting around (dirty is fine I have an injector cleaner) you are willing to donate you can find my shipping address all over this website!

If stock is about 14.5 bhp to the back tire, I am thinking 22 in naturally aspirated form would be a really strong goal and 32-34 under the added stress of boost would be just right to make the most fun Vespa EVER!!!

[V-Power]

I will be happily putting miles on my mostly unadulterated SportCity 300 while you spend valuable time and money sacrificing your new Vespa to the Speed Gods!

Now hurry up and get on with it!!!

[Buckeroo Bob]

I hope you will try to keep the modified airbox as quiet as possible.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

It only makes a ssmall amount more noise with the modified airbox, a pleasant low frequency humm really, no biggie. Maybe some video/audio will be in order along the way. Even the fully built at uranyl aspirated motor will be tested with the stock pipe to how much restriction it really offers and because I like quiet too!



Here is the dead stock airbox removed and ready for surgery!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220890&d=1367977802


Here is the inside of the airbox after removing the internal baffle to get more flow into the resonance chamber where the intake to the throttle body is attached:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220882&d=1367977802


This is a shot looking from the bottom of the airbox into the intake tube which goes to the air filter side of the airbox...you can easily see my crude yet effective change...the big square hole added with the Dremel!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220881&d=1367977802

This is a pic taken from the inside looking out...even though the intake area has grown by 300% noise did not even go up on the intake side by 3db! Not bad, and good for about a 1bhp increase from the bottom to the top of the rev range even with the stock small valve head on the motor!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220883&d=1367977802

[bunnybash]

Micah, I have access to an Aprilia Scarabeo ie 500cc injector? Will that help you? I am in Australia, but following this boosting idea like your number 1 disciple.

[johnwf]

I am also very interested in this one. I am in Australia, too far away for a visit so will follow the thread. I am retired but like to fiddle, especially with engines. My two daily rides are a modified Italjet Dragster 180 two stroke scooter and a Benelli Velvet 400 scooter.
My current project is another Italjet Dragster which I have fitted a GTS 250 engine, almost finished. Like you I am going the forced induction route, I have both an AMR300 blower and an IHI RHB31 turbo. I prefer the supercharger but the Dragster is such a small scooter I cannot see any available space to fit the thing. So turbo it will be to start off with. The current plan is to run the scooter standard for a while, then switch over to a Keihin PWK 36mm carby and run E85 ethanol. Hopefully, once the turbo is fitted, by running E85 we should not have to lower the compression, depending on what boost the turbo produces (I have three engines so we can have one mistake or two). I know the carby seems a backward step but I do not have the knowledge or resources to fine tune the injection on the E85. I have a wide band gauge so that will help a bit with tuning. With the carby we will try draw thru first, as that is probably the easiest setup even if not the best, to see what happens then decide how to proceed from there.
Anyway, looking forward to see how your project works out, it may change my mind on some things.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well it fired to life for the first time yesterday...for me at least. Airbox mod was pre done since I have had a lot of time to kill waiting for a ccheap enough ecu and Lockset to come up my way. many thanks to PGA Technical for the one running it now. Man this scooter is a total abortion, crashed with shit damage repair everywhere. No two fasteners match...working my way along with it though. Hopefully I get a dyno baseline in today. Where to find the best ddeal on Malossi parts now...I need a head and a cylinder/piston kit bad, the stock micro valves are a severe limitation. It is still way faster than my 200cc Vespa up to say 40mph but about dead even with the 200cc from 40 mph all the way to the rev limiter.

More to come now that it runs...must get Malossi V4 head!



For those of you who have never seen the Aisin AMR300 blower, 300cc displacement per rotor revolution....about perfect for doing a Vespa with HUGE torque!


http://victorylibrary.com/graphics/Aisin%20AMR500.jpg

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

We have spark and fuel! This bike was sold to us by Piaggio as "new" and to their credit it arrived in what appeared to be an unopened crate. Upon removal from the crate it seemed obvious it had some mileage...and damage...and missing parts. Piaggio did the right thing and sold it to me for parts value and now after 5 months of ecu hacking and a generous gift from the Tech Dept at PGA it is back to running under it's own power! 15.6 bhp was the baseline on the dyno with nothing modified other than the intake to the airbox! When I get the cash together for the Malossi V4 head things will start to get very interesting very quickly. I am trying to get a severely discounted Akro pipe from our PU Rep to complete the naturally aspirated version of the motor...what happens over the winter...well...you guys know I have a real boost fetish right?

So in total I have found damage from the front to the back of the bike, evidence it was a flood survivor, have estimated mileage at roughly 1,500 miles based on tire wear...odometer drive gear was removed by whoever the previous dealer was that rode/crashed/shittily repaired the bike...down the rabbit's hole. it is better for me to start out with damaged bikes, since they only tend to get more damaged during the time I own them!

[kenbike]

Any details on the air box mod?

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yeah, I just removed the short baffle between the filtered and clean air side and cut the intake tube open to full width near the point where it enters the airbox. I will take some pics of the next one I do or of this one when it comes off again. Waiting on my speedo drive gear and then it is time to rock this bike on the street.


Micah


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221320&d=1368474597

[kenbike]

A few photos would be good, my is still 100% stock so I am going to follow your build out. I need to keep it very reliable so it does not leave my wife stranded. It would be very interested in seeing if the stock exhaust works out, she hates a loud bike!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I do not think the stock exhaust is going to be the primary restriction even in a motor with a big valve head. So far the most I have gained from any pipe on one of these engines is only 1.5bhp which is pretty decent but not spectacular.

Here is the reason the stock cylinder head is unimpressive when it comes to actually making power, theses are a set of pics using all stock parts to compare to the Malossi parts later.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171125&d=1316486748

From the intake side of the head looking into the exhaust ports....where you see carbon built up there is only low speed, usually subsonic exhaust flow. It is hard to imagine that even the micro valve version of the head lacks velocity...but this is all about reading the tea leaves...

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171118&d=1316486471

The intake ports at the junction between the intake valve seats and the head casting basically suck if peak power is a goal in your engine build, if all you want your Vespa 200/250/300cc to do is get amazing fuel economy then just leave all the head stuff alone, I doubt making 30% power gains will help fuel economy at all if that extra power is used!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171121&d=1316486537

Here is a bare stock head...you can clearly see how large the bore diameter is compared to the valve area...easy power is easy to spot, even if far from free to extract from the little one lunger!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171120&d=1316486517


The "hot side" looking in...wow, they really did everything they could to neuter this motor before unleashing them upon us public...one would think this port should be dry and friggin clean as lean as these motors run...not the case I guess...easy enough to fix with porting or simply porting a new Malossi V4 head...better yet...the stock head is just not going to cut it. Btw, this head was run at full power on the dyno for close to thirty minutes before tearing down the next day...seems to me it really should be close to spotless inside!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171119&d=1316486496

Here are the stock valves after cleaning compared to a Rotax/Aprilia V990 intake valve behind. The basic design with "wasted" stems on the intake side is pretty good looking, maybe the best looking dead stock part!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171127&d=1316486810

[bunnybash]

So your plans are for malossi v4, then boost?

I eagerly await!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yeah, boost is the end game for this motor. Every time I ride it I pretend it is turbocharged...this winter hopefully I can stop pretending. I already have lots of metal tubes, the modified oil cooler from an RSV4 for the intercooler, spare ecu, pumps, injectors and the turbocharger and a lot of laser cut flanges for building the dump pipes and such. What I distinctly lack right now is free time!

Here is the end game...IHI RH03B, the smallest new turbocharger I could afford that seems sized basically right for this project!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220898&d=1367977994


She is a very pretty little work of mechanical art yes?


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220896&d=1367977994


Here is the hot side!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220897&d=1367977994



Finally we get to the cold side, or at least cooler side after intercooling with an anti-det mixture of 50% water and 50% Methanol:


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220895&d=1367977994

[bunnybash]

Yeah, boost is the end game for this motor. Every time I ride it I pretend it is turbocharged...this winter hopefully I can stop pretending. I already have lots of metal tubes, the modified oil cooler from an RSV4 for the intercooler, spare ecu, pumps, injectors and the turbocharger and a lot of laser cut flanges for building the dump pipes and such. What I distinctly lack right now is free time!

eagerly awaiting to hear how all this goes!!!

[jrflanne]

You still have my Leo Vince slip-on there? Put that on, although the Akra is much better.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I gave away your old LV to the guy who sold me my airplane. I was thinking Akro for the first pipe but now am leaning towards building my own again because I do not like the length of the header pipe on any of the aftermarket systems. Since a scooter only has to "be on the pipe" in a narrow rpm range I am first going to get as much as I can fromit naturally aspirated and with simple tricks like correct header length, resonant intake track length and such. The stock header will be cut up and re welded with gasketed flanges for the turbo if I even get the time. Hell I made all the flanges over a year ago. Right now they just keep my new turbocharger company in SA box beside my bench.

If anyone see a cheap spare 300cc Vespa motor please post it here or a link. I need a spare to minimize build vs downtime and I always like having a motor to compare against as a quick reference. Basic turbo plan is this: Malossi v4 head, stock piston with valve pockets machined. Stock piston and cylinder are boost ready dished low compression items. Where to hide the water/methanol tank and pump...to be decided. It will be a very well intercooled motor when it is is ready to play with the dyno.

This is as pretty as you can make the stock cylinder head with much porting and love added and .35mm removed from the bottom deck of the cylinder head for a little added compression! Notice especially the areas of high air velocity at the points where the head casting blends now into the valve seats! This alone was pretty damn impressive on the dyno, a great mod for someone with tool, aptitude, free time and not enough cash to buy the Malossi head kit!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171129&d=1316487462

Here is an unlit version of that same basic pic to show reground valve seat contact areas...


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171128&d=1316487443

Pic taken down well lit exhaust port...


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171133&d=1316487557


Now a not so good pic down the ported stock intake port:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171134&d=1316487577

In this next two pics set I am using the cam to open valves to full open position so what you are seeing is stock max valve lift on the intake first and exhaust second.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171147&d=1316488055

Here is the full open set of exhaust valves with the port internally lit up with LED stick lights inserted into the port itself.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171145&d=1316487981

[scooterman]

Micah...don't know if you're still looking for a throttle body for a 500 but there's currently one on Ebay to the tune of $200 in San Jose, CA....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Piaggio-MP3-500-Throttle-Body-/270889533330?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f12463f92&vxp=mtr#ht_500wt_1313

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Actually I am good now on the tb. If I have to I will over pre but only slightly, I think the sticker is plenty big though, especially after porting down screws and shaft a bit.

I am measuring 32-33mm for the throttle plate so it is plenty large given the size of the actual intake port. There might be a very small gain possible from using the Guzzi V7 injection unit with a reflash since it is 38mm but definitely not a major power gain.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220889&d=1367977802

From the top to get an overview of the ecu/tb/immobilizes/everything....here is pretty much proof the throttle plate is right at 32mm I think?

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220888&d=1367977802

From the front:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220891&d=1367977994

From the rear, or vacuum side:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220892&d=1367977994

Some smart porting of the throttle body might actually be good for power, the shaft is overkill size, the bolt heads and tails fairly restrictive to central flow...hmmmm

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220894&d=1367977994

Yes, I think some porting of this area, rounding of the blades leading edge to make it more winglike, removal of excess bolt material and smoothing the shafts transition areas might just pay off!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220893&d=1367977994

[kenbike]

I opened up my air box on my 300 super and it did not make much of a difference in power. It result in slightly less intake noise a lower speeds. with my frame 6 ft 200 lbs it tops out around 84 on the speedo. I thinking of adding a slip on or installing some Doctor Pullet sliders. Any advice?

[jrflanne]

That is the speed limiter talking. If you want more top speed, you will have to deal with that. There is an aftermarket ECU. Try scooterworks.com

[nimmnenkeks]

hi,

there is a Guy working on a 300° cam with 10mm stroke. His 280° cams were Sold out. But his modified original cams, made to 280° are very good.
Now we build a new piston for a 295 ccm cylinder for the stroke of the 300° cam.
But in Germany is the only Solution to get a New Mapping for the MM MIU ECU by RexXer (www.RexXer.eu) for 500€. Wich aftermaket ECU's for the GTS 300 are available ?

Sorry for my bad english

Regards Keks

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Since the 300cc and 250cc motors are almost completely closed loop a slightly larger injector or bump in fuel pressure should allow all to work fine, especially with www.fatduc.com (http://www.fatduc.com) style lambda signal modifier, about all I am planning on for mods as the power goes up. Raising stock fuel pressure is VERY easy with a ball peen hammer, patience and a little disassembly. Stock pressure at the injector is not that high so that is the first mod I would try. Once I add boost an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with vacuum/boost reference hose added is roughly all I will feel required to add since keeping boost fairly low 7-10psig can be pretty easily managed with only larger injector. If you do find anyone who has an aftermarket "open" ecu please let me know, I would like to avoid adding PCV if possible.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221317&d=1368474597

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I got a new part for my eventual attempt at boost....finally found a stainless exhaust "tank" with o2 sensor location correctly placed for my turbo application...time to start cutting and welding after the weather cools off and the number of bikes through service drops off a bit. Pulling an HD off the dyno, putting a CBR1000rr onto the dyno and prepping for a s1000rr next...long week of extreme heat and more extreme water consumption by me. I realized on these days I drink ten percent of my total body weight in water on a daily basis...seems like a lot of water to me.

I am shooting for some thing closer to constant pressure turbocharging that pulse type turbine pressurization for smoother boost with less surge since exducer and compressor wheels are on the slightly large side for a single cylinder 300cc application. Hopefully the CVT will be my savior as well as the new dual TB system I am designing for anti-lag, a variation of what was used in the 1.5 liter F1 turbo days. Search "per turbo throttle body" in google to get an idea of what I am shooting for. I need about 4 times cylinder volume on the intake side and at least three time cylinder displacement on the hot side for it to work right from6-10k rpm according to my calculations.


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221318&d=1368474597

[nimmnenkeks]

Found this one in Germany, they offer an open ECU and the Software for their products are free!

SILENT HEKTIK
Automotive Hard- & Software
Hansastr. 72b
59425 Unna
European Union - Germany
order @ silent - hektik . com

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Interesting....will be doing some reading. Thanks!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221319&d=1368474597

[Mike Holland]

Micah, as the instigator of the airfilter box mod on ModernVespa, I am interested in your version of this mod. Have you published it anywhere yet? My mod was tested by PM Tuning some time back, and they reported about 1/3 hp gain right across the speed range.
I have a GTS250 with Malossi cylinder, piston and head, Polini variator, Malossi clutch springs, contra spring and torque converter and Malossi TC Lambda Emulator. My front wheel lifts whenever I take off, and I now maintain 115-120kph up my test hill where my speed used to drop to 95 kph.
Regards, Mike.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have not posted it yet I don't think because each variation has been a bit different. Next time I do one on the dyno from dead stock up to modded I will do an airbox mods test with a logical sequence as well to see which does what ad why. It's funny that the airbox mods make any difference at all because with the radically undersized valves one would not imagine such a small change in airbox pressure would be beneficial at all. I have a host of mods coming to test over the winter so it might get slightly interesting.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213269&d=1360159364

[Mike Holland]

Yes, it was a surprising result for a simply pocket-knife mod. Just be warned. When I tried chopping the length of pipe that extends into the airbox, the results were disastrous. That must be a carefully tuned length of pipe from throttle to airbox.
Mike

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have actually read your postings on that subject and there is something not quite logical going on there with intake tube length. The resonant frequency of the intake pipe is the distance from the intake valves to the bellmouth of the throttle body...the tube should not make as big a difference as it does. There may be a dual resonance occurring, or even triple counting the hemlotz stuff going on with the airbox. I was planning to test and play with that on the dyno and see if I could find anything definitive to answer that because it has bothered me at some level for a long time. Once I am turbocharged my intake tract length will be radically different so getting a few answers before boosting seems prudent.


In the end I gained 2 bhp in the last 2k rpm with the airbox removed and the filter clamped directly onto the throttle body, I really needed a shorter inlet tract length for correct high rpm resonance, after dialing in fuel this did cost me roughly 1 bhp below 7,300 rpm.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213271&d=1360159400

[Sternat]

Since the 300cc and 250cc motors are almost completely closed loop a slightly larger injector or bump in fuel pressure should allow all to work fine, especially with www.fatduc.com (http://www.fatduc.com) style lambda signal modifier, about all I am planning on for mods as the power goes up. Raising stock fuel pressure is VERY easy with a ball peen hammer, patience and a little disassembly. Stock pressure at the injector is not that high so that is the first mod I would try. Once I add boost an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with vacuum/boost reference hose added is roughly all I will feel required to add since keeping boost fairly low 7-10psig can be pretty easily managed with only larger injector. If you do find anyone who has an aftermarket "open" ecu please let me know, I would like to avoid adding PCV if possible.

Hello Micah,

i´m interessted in this:
Raising stock fuel pressure is VERY easy with a ball peen hammer, patience and a little disassembly.!!

I wanna build in the injectors from the Beverly 500 an raise the fuel pressure!
Can u explain me how i can do this?

I will also buy the fatduc emulator :)

BR Dominik

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Once the fuel pump assy is removed using a ball peen hammer to smash in the top of the regulator slightly, will increase the spring preload on the regulator piston which in turn raises fuel pressure. You can also use a vice or bearing press for more precision, you want to move only about 1mm at a time and re-measure fuel pressure at each step until you have reached 3.5bar....or just buy a generic same-sized regulator that is 3.5 Bar instead of the stock claimed 2.5 Bar.

Google "fuel pressure regulator modification" to see what car people do to accomplish same task, so,e are much more eloquent solutions. On early 250cc bikes with the feed and return hoses on the injector manifold you can add an externally adjustable regulator which is my plan since I have a few sitting around, then you just hook up the pressure gauges and adjust the screw until you hit the target pressure and then tighten the locknut. I would then remove the in tank regulator to keep return flow to tank under no real pressure.


Here is the more or less final version of the intake...very small low end loss once tuned, very reasonable high end gain as well!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220703&d=1367859239

[Sternat]

Okay, thank u!

That help sa lot! I think im ready to do this... have u some pics from the Mod on the GTS 300?

When i´ve raised the preassure and the changed the injector, what should be the next step?
The lambda emulator to regulate the AFR?

BR thank u!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

That is my plan for the basic setup. Since the motor is intended to run closed loop 99% of the time...let it do so, but with the right pressure and injector size to suit the mods, if that fails then I will get deeper into it. I am not planning on huge boost, it is not needed to be fun, 7-10psi should be doable with my constant pressure type design for the plumbing and with intercooling from both the heat exchanger and water/methanol injection intake temp should be lower than ambient or very close to ambient under full boost.


Pumps...yeah, I got pumps...


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221330&d=1368474728

[Sternat]

another question ... Did u take the injector from the Beverly 500 before 2008 or from the current Beverly?
The Injector from the 350 isn´t much better?!

THanks...

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have so many injectors in my tool box it is starting to look like OCD. Since max power required from a cylinder is only in the range of 30-35 bhp pretty much anything in the ballpark of 200-300cc should work given that fuel pressure can be managed a bit. I have not run a full test on the stock injector to see where it is at duty cyle wise at the stock 2.5 Bar pressure but think it is pretty close to maxed out at that low pressure. I was just going to use an mp3 500 injector since I know it has plenty of capacity at moderate boost and fits in the same manifold hole. I have a return style injector hold-down from an early model Vespa 250cc which I plan on using to allow external fuel pressure regulator. There are a lot of unknowns right now. My plan of attack is to upgrade to Malossi head for naturally aspirated use first and take measurements and make sure there are no issues with keeping up with self tuning duties, then move onto a boosted solution once I get it to run as good as possible naturally aspirated. I think a genuine 20-22bhp can be had naturally aspirated and that would be plenty fun..the turbo thing is just additional OCD and a use for the turbo I bought and flanges I had made up when I thought the RS4 125cc shifter bike was going to be sold in the USA. My other thought was to use that same little IHI turbo in a ninja 250/300 motor in another chassis altogether but that is not really where my heart is at for a project. I love riding my little Vespa too much to not play with it so it can at least do wheelies on a good day!


This is maybe 25% of the total collection of injectors to play with, duplicates were not pulled, they range from propane injectors, to M3 BMW injectors to Busa injectors....to Vespa injectors!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221331&d=1368474728

[Sternat]

I understand ...

Now i´ve one Problem. The GTS 300 has no external Fuel pressure regulator. Is the FPR in the stock Pump included an where should this be?
The Injector should fit from the MP3 500 and the Beverly 500, both are with a "return side" that means bith sides from the injectors are open.

I plan to raise the fuel pressure, change the injector a

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

The FPR on the Vespa late model scoots is located between the pump and the baseplate for a "return less system" if you want a return style system with adjustable FPR you can either mod the baseplate of the tank cartridge assembly or use a 2006 vintage Vespa 250cc pump assy. The stock baseplate looks pretty easy to modify really.

[Sternat]

Here is a picture vrom the Pump.

I don´t want a return style system. I wan´t to raise the FP on this system ;-) Is this possible with the original system from the GTS?


203098

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yes it is possible, the FPR is barely visible in this pic, located on the opposite pic was taken from and made of shiny metal on top side of bottom fuel pump baseplate. Simply dimple it with a ball peen hammer and re-test line pressure until you have hit your target number. I have to go external only due to need to raise fuel pressure by one psi for each psi of increased pressure in the intake manifold.

Here is the standard returnless top for the fuel pump plate that inserts into the top of the tank on the Vespa.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221329&d=1368474728

[Sternat]

Okay,

i will try it in the morning an post some pictures!
I hope that it wont take to much time ;-)

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Once the pump plate is dropped (after draining fuel) it is pretty damn easy...measurement of pressure might take a special tool or a little creativity.

This is the injector "rail" you will need to get for a return style system which allows the use of either an adjustable fuel pressure regulator or a rising rate regulator if you are planning to add boost either via a blower or a turbo-supercharger

These came stock on most of the 250cc motors and definitely on the 2006-2008 bikes, dirt cheap fuel rail, perfect for its eventual job!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220886&d=1367977802

[Sternat]

Well done :)

I´ve raised the preasure form 2.5 bar to 3.6 bar!
I´ve taken a specially tool for the measurement ... the hardest part was the deassy from the parts around :D

http://imageshack.us/a/img685/9889/20120921135508.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img255/2006/20120921135519.jpg

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Nice...welcome to the sickness! Love the pipe, of I were staying naturally aspirated I would be getting the same pipe or making one of my own design...something you might consider, the primary tube length is all wrong on all the aftermarket pipes, it needs to longer before the expansion section, PM Tuning made one that got closer to the correct length, not sure if it is still out there or not. How does the bike run, is the ecu learning the new trim values quickly enough?


Your bike inspired my choice of color for my valve cover!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213272&d=1360159400

[Quarantine]

I'm buying a Vespa once someone mass produces a bolt on turbo kit

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I love the orange color...loud!

Here is a fuel pump from a Vespa and more specifically the fuel pressure regulator to show it up close.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=203721&d=1348527469

This is the pump cartridge complete:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=203720&d=1348527465

[jrflanne]

That orange is nice. Stock?

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yep, that was indeed a stock color for the EU market, not sure if we got them here, awesome color scooter however! Since mine got crashed for me on Thursday by a no parking moron at the bank it is something to consider for me, different decals might be appropriate for mine however.

[jrflanne]

That orange in matte would be kickin'!

[scooterman]

Gentlemen....please advise on what would be the general consensus for a reliable power upgrade; drop the V4 head on a) the stock 250cc (244cc) jug, b) the stock 300cc (278cc) or c) the Malossi 268cc? Also, which combo/s, beside the stock 250cc, would require piston modification?
Many thanks, RW

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

If you have a 250cc do the full Malossi kit, bore and head and if you use the right piston even the cam! All bolt on stuff and all works very well.

[scooterman]

If you have a 250cc do the full Malossi kit, bore and head and if you use the right piston even the cam! All bolt on stuff and all works very well.

Thanks for the tips, Micah...I'm looking for that little extra boost through the canyons, sounds like that's the ticket ; j

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

If by little you want an extra 30+% then it is a perfect parts list. I am going to try mine out using the stock pipe once my head arrives. I am using the stock 300 Piaggio cylinder, machining valve cutouts into the stock piston if required because I need to keep compression ratio low and also need the steel liner cylinder for maximum cylinder strength under boost, no reason to give it a weak spot and the stock 300 piston looks plenty strong to take the additional heat and pressure of a modified motor. The Malossi piston for use with the Malossi V4 head is a very nice part and will definitely bring higher compression which for a naturally aspirated street motor is exactly what you want.

This is the fairly rare stock alloy cylinder with piston from Piaggio, it costs no more really than the iron cylinder replacement kit from Piaggio but you definitely save some weight, 6-8 lbs if memory is serving me at this pre Red Bull hour!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171643&d=1317075805

While this is a dead stock, oem Piaggio item it is pretty uncommon, I would guess that 99% of the motors shipped to the USA used the iron cylinder...but if ever you have to replace your stock cylinder due to some unforeseen disaster remember this little jewel. The piston is EXACTLY the same whether you get the iron or alloy bore, dished, low compression to survive decades of WFO highway riding!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=171645&d=1317075837

For comparisons sake, here is the more common steel or iron cylinder as delivered stock.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=172036&d=1317593774


This pic compares the Malossinpiston for use with the stock cam (medium compression) with the stock piston!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=172016&d=1317593056

Now...to find the pic of the high comp piston for use with the 300 Super cam or the optional Malossi V4 race camshaft which is about the same spec wise as the stock 300 camshaft!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=172016&d=1317593056


Ready to run after removing ALL sharp edges! I did not end up using this piston but rather a stock one due to plans for eventual boost on my motor!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190214&d=1335967454

[scooterman]

Yes, exactly, 30% up should be about right ...and I had planned to keep the stock exhaust and throttle body. My stock cylinder is steel and initially considered machining the stock piston but you've convinced me otherwise; as it stands I'm already starting to annoy the sportbike crowd by tailgating them through the twisties smoking a hand rolled. I'd like to really get under their skin by doing the same but uphill, assuring they'll never look at scooters the same way again ; j

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

A wet shot of nitrous at 10bhp on the rich side should be able to really help on the straights...and god that would be fun if system was totally hidden! A pipe with a longer header like used on the PM Tuning or the little length trick Leo Vince uses to add header length are good for the Vespa motors....especially with the head replaced so the pipe becomes an actual restriction, on a stock motor you only gain about 1.5bhp from the Akro or Leo pipes, the bike I had in with the PM Tuning pipe ran so poorly due to a host of other owner installed mods it never saw the dyno...free rebuilds are not my thing.

Anyone know the ideal header length for say 8-9k rpm?


Meant to post this earlier...the as-delivered Malossi high comp/big cam piston with deep valve pockets and high crown.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190215&d=1335967460

[scooterman]

LOL...Yes!, that's exactly what's needed for those uphill straights behind an R6, and totally hidden, it's brilliant.

What about extending the header length with a shorty Akro slip on... just sayin'...

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I am guessing the reason Akro uses suck a large diameter tapered link pipe is to slow down exhaust velocity to "trick" the header into acting like it is longer, similar to the asymmetries used in the Ducati 999 exhaust when looking at the diameter of the rear header versus the front header. We need pipes that show benefit from 6-9.5k rpm, much lower in the rpm range than most sportbike motors...our header length needs to be somewhere between cruiser and sportbike lengths...just do not know the real formula for pipe length. I helped a customer design and build a custom 4T race pipe for a single cylinder on the dyno once. He built a test exhaust which simply came out the side of the chassis and made it way too long, we then chopped off about an inch at a time until it made good power...that sorted header length and he was then able to build his actual pipe to fit the bike in the correct length. It was an interesting experiment and I have yet to see a 4T scooter pipe that really looks right based on that experience.

[scooterman]

Hmmm...would the KTM Moto 3 250 GPR reveal any clues as to header length? ...even though it's a short stroke, 14000 rpm, 180lb, 50hp beast.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Nope, we need to find a truly optimized header intended for peak power in the 7-9k range...Ducati HM1100 may be closer to right. Where did you find the moto 3 pic...can you link to it or post pics, I am interested to see it.

[redratbike]

Hmmm...would the KTM Moto 3 250 GPR reveal any clues as to header length? ...even though it's a short stroke, 14000 rpm, 180lb, 50hp beast.

heres the only pics i can find
205581

[redratbike]

205582

[scooterman]

205591205590

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

See how long the header and "collector" are even for a 14k rpm motor...the Arrow pipe is a display part I am guessing more than a race part like the Akro pictured. Jesus, that is a sweet bike, that is the sort of thing that would actually get me interested in visiting my local KTM dealer!

[scooterman]

I figured the display pipe would give a good idea of the overall header length...so you're thinking longer for the quasar 250/300, hmm. What a bout a longer header with a cone type baffle...like on the old modded SR500 Yamahas? Yes, a very sweet bike for those who've got an extra $50K ; j

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well I said I wasn't gonna do it...but I put on an Akro this morning...so much better than stock! The db killer bolt on this one was stripped so I am just gonna leave it in place like I normally do but did want to dyno with and without the choker in the pipe. The Akro was free from a totaled bike...just the right price and the scratches do not bother me at all, it makes it match the rest of the scooter better really.

Well...by the end of the day the awesome fully adjustable Bitubo shock from the totaled scooter migrated over to my 300 Super...damn the difference is night and day and the ride height is up now as well, will set up proper sag and rebound to match what I have at the rear here shortly. The difference is cornering stability is pretty big for simply maxxing out rear ride height and adding a shock....me likes....the pipe helps too....

This scooter got a brand new Akro as part of a wreck repair....hmmm, what to do with the old "junk" Akro...then another total loss scooter came in with an Akro...so I have now have one modified with no internal baffle "stopper plate" and one as delivered from Akro.


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220696&d=1367858870


Found a new home for that old junk pipe....and saved a shitload of cash! God I love getting free parts! I scratch up everything I own anyway...pre scratched! Just my speed.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220705&d=1367859239


The final roll out the door for this Vespa....HARD front hit, total loss and parted out, need anything, just check the online store under the Vespa section and sub category "used parts"

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220693&d=1367858870

[bunnybash]

I am still following this thread closely... My wife and I are planning on moving to America next year, so we are going to have to be in touch to order something awesome!!! :) I am thinking that your naturally aspirated 30% extra power is what is on the cards!!!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I too think 30% would be a very reasonable and fun change in power and acceleration, does anyone make taller final drive gears for more top speed, I have not seen them in the Malossi catalog? Where are you moving from to come here to the USA? I need to get my damn head...stupid finances, things like having a water tight roof keep,getting in the way!


The stock Maossi V4 cylinder head and ports, as delivered from Malossi:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190207&d=1335967009

Onto the surface plate to make sure the bottom deck is dead flat for a proper seal:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190200&d=1335966978


The stock valve seats before blending and re-seating the valves!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190205&d=1335967000


The Malossi as-delivered intake port with focus on rough transition between the casting and seats.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190209&d=1335967432

Closer view, at least these transitions can be fixed with no epoxy or weld required!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190199&d=1335966974


The as deliver Malossi V4 exhaust port. There are some changes to make here....


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190208&d=1335967013

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic79446

Looks like more than one person is thinking boost is the way to go! One guy is at a claimed 42 bhp!


Here is a set from the finished ports and combustion chamber...sharp edges must go!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190201&d=1335966983


Notice how the valve seating areas are now all the same width and show all the signs of making a damn good seal for years to come as long as I stay on top of valve adjustments!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190202&d=1335966987

Here is a nice view of the reworked transition areas!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190203&d=1335966991

Now with valves back in their seats and sprung....much better!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190204&d=1335966996


A pic of the valve being prepped....

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190204&d=1335966996

All four valves ground and cleaned, ready to install


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190218&d=1335967603

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well I broke down and bought myself a V4 cylinder head from Rich over at HGT, probably the best $650 I could have spent on that bike...man is it going to be fast(er) once it is fully done!


In the flesh compared to the micro sized stock valves! Notice the carbon burn ring to compare bore size to actual valve area. With the stock dished piston on the 278cc Piaggio models there is no danger of piston to valves collision UNLESS you set cam timing wrong!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213268&d=1360159364

[jrflanne]

Micah, remember you gave me a db killer from Leo Vince that fit in my Akro slip-on. Butt dyno says no power drop and it is a lot quieter. Decided open was a bit loud.

Told you the bitubo stuff was the shit.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

So here is the Vespa on the dyno getting a post Akro baseline run...Piaggio like to run motors on the lean side but if they run good lean then all the better for us I suppose. Once boosted the motor will not be allowed to go this lean!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=206630&d=1352058170


The Akro pipe is made from this wall stainless for the header so at 900F or so it glows cherry red!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=206629&d=1352058170

So Garrett has a new micro turbo on the market designed for 50-300cc motors called a GT06...anyone want to sponsor a turbo my way, this new Garrett makes my little IHI look huge!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Oh my new cylinder head is in transit...heading my way...if only I had time to do it right before the trackday! Vespa at TWS, now that sounds oddly enough like a lot of fun!



Vale fully ground and ready!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190219&d=1335967607

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Head in my hands...literally. Thanks Rich at HGT! Now to disassemble and start the porting process, spare manifolds out already, tools lined up....

I am gonna play guinea pig on my own scooter but after this build I expect to be doing more of these for you guys! Scooters should wheelie!

So the head got a nice general port job to straighten out the curves as best I could, a light bottom decking to make sure it is flat, all valves seated to my satisfaction and most important I painted the valve cover in an obnoxious orange to make sure people think its bad ass on initial inspection....lol.

I did not photograph every little detail this time because it literally looks identical to jrflanne's cylinder head so I can save some pic editing ti,e because this weekend is going to be photo intensive for me anyway!

After I get to what I feel is the best power for the stock piston with the Malossi head the turbocharging project can get serious!



A couple of post porting port pics! The hot side:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190216&d=1335967465


The cold side:


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=190213&d=1335967449

[bunnybash]

How much do you imagine the head costing when you sell it to me? Love what you are doing. You should come up with different packages

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Just buy your head from Rich at HGT and have him send it down...about $300 in porting time was spent on mine which is a little quicker than the ones I have done for other folks...know which cutters and bits to reach for now.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well no progress on my 300 Super this week, it was needed by Pirelli for the F1 weekend and I let them borrow it in exchange for tickets (VIP) to the F1 Austin race..which I leave for in seconds.

[scooterman]

Granted, F1 races are a necessary part of making scooters wheelie...time well spent I'm sure.

[bunnybash]

Well no progress on my 300 Super this week, it was needed by Pirelli for the F1 weekend and I let them borrow it in exchange for tickets (VIP) to the F1 Austin race..which I leave for in seconds.

Show off!!!! :-)

[bunnybash]

Just buy your head from Rich at HGT and have him send it down...about $300 in porting time was spent on mine which is a little quicker than the ones I have done for other folks...know which cutters and bits to reach for now.

I presume that HGT is "High Gain Tuning" - but can't find the part listed there!!

PS I am in Australia - would it be possible to get the head done by you and shipped to me? By the slowest cheapest possible shipping!!?? I have a mechanic over here who would help me fit the head and parts but no one has done the amount of research that you have shown here!!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yes, I mean Rich at High Gain Tuning in Colorado, just go to Malossi website and pick out parts you want, most likely the cylinder kit with flat top high compression piston and the V4 head...email those part numbers over to HGT for purchase instructions. I would be happy to spend a couple to three hours on your head to make it look nice and pretty and then I can ship down to you in Oz but not on the boat, too much stuff gets damaged in ocean shipping. If you want I can even send the head out for the full Serdi or Newen valve job and do the porting at my place...whatever you desire. "Cheap" does not really go with any of these parts though...you have to really love your Vespa to justify the costs of doing all this.

We at AF1 have recently acquired a new re-flash system that can get into the 300cc computers...I am going to try making a custom mapping for mine first but there may be a re-flash for Malossi V4 head coming in the near future too. Just additional options to consider. Once I get my head installed and run in I will be tuning mine via the oem computer lambda feedback and then injector size and fuel pressure at first, I will delve into deeper mapping if that is not enough. I am currently at 16.2-16.5 bhp and shooting for 20-22bhp with the head at the tire, I am guessing the stock 2.5 Bar fuel pressure will not be quite high enough.

[Mike Holland]

Some of the German fanatics are well into re-programming the EFI. Have you browsed around Vespaforum.de? You will need to use an online translator if you don't speak German.

I am happy with my Malossi Lambda Emulator, but it does increase fuel consumption a bit.

Mike

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have pretty good control over the closed loop fueling with nothing more than a modified FatDuc lambda modifier which is pretty similar to the Malossi unit in function. I need access to spark tables though...and Rexxer should get me inside the ecu for some editing, the Rexxer package will be to the shop soon enough to play with the tuning on the Vespa and hopefully develop an excellent re-flash map for use with the Malossi cylinder head. I also really need to be able to see injector duty cycle, this will be very important once boost is added to the equation as will spark timing. I am already thinking of how to properly lock up the variator for fine tuning of the whole rpm range, I want excellent throttle response and the stock computer falls a little short there, or the stock mapping does at least.

[Mike Holland]

I am already thinking of how to properly lock up the variator for fine tuning of the whole rpm range,

Superglue? http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.png

Or a piece of string through the rollers to keep them all half-way out? A knot on each side to keep it balanced! http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.png

Interesting question. How great is the centrifugal force exerted by the rollers at high rpm? How tough would a piece of string need to be?

Mike

[bunnybash]

few things make me sadder than coming to this thread and seeing no updates!!

[scooterman]

few things make me sadder than coming to this thread and seeing no updates!!

Yes but one mustn't rush genius... ; j

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have the head ready to go ported and on my bench...but either the scooter has been in use (borrowed by Pirelli for a week or demo rides or shop scooter duties) and I have been very busy with dyno and motor work on other bikes. I really am hoping to get the head installed and baseline tested this week...hoping for 20 bhp, that's not too much right? My scooter is also being used to test map flashes on...and eventually to develop a downloadable flash able mapping for the V4 head with a pipe and airbox mods to get the most out of the motor in the configuration most people are going to use.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I will take some studio pics of the head to add to this post, like I said I have been way behind the ball on dyno work lately because of issues with bikes, power commanders, kit ecu's and learning new software...which hopefully will make this one bad mofo when it finally is done. I will not consider it done until it runs under boost perfectly...but to keep it all logical and stuff so information is gleaned for all...I am doing it in little steps and tuning at each step so we can all get some answers in a world very devoid of true performance tuning facts about these motors. I will post the completed project eventually at modern Vespa but not until it really is complete...

[Mike Holland]

Micah, thus discussion has centered on the engine. What are your thoughts about the transmission? I ask because Dr.Pulley has just brought out a variator specially designed for their sliders, item V201503. Considering the sliders alone give almost as much performance as a Malossi/Polini variator, I think this is well worth looking at. Combined with their HiT clutch it should make a very good setup!

Mike

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Tranny wise the stock parts are fine for a long belt and clutch life and smooth and drama free acceleration around town....not really what I am looking for in this scooter. I like the DR Pulley stuff and may be willing tomtrynit out once I get the motor sorted. Until the motor is making power correctly and across the whole rpm range the tranny tuning is not required. I know from previous experiences that the right roller weight and rear clutch springs along can totally transform the street manners of the GTS/GTV/Super so we will be going down that route eventually. My stock clutch will probably be burned crispy by dyno time so after that I will start seriously looking at alternative parts!

[bunnybash]

The Dr Pulley HiT clutch was awesome on the 500ie Beo that I had... amazing for acceleration.

Had the Beo doing 0-60 in under 5 seconds, along with all the other mods :)

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

A little closer, by the time I get back from Montana my new head gasket, and all three thickness of base gasket to set proper squish will be in from Piaggio. The base gaskets are available in three thickness sizes which is pretty cool, you have a total adjustable squish range of .6mm which can come in really handy for getting the squish spot on where you want it, like 0.8mm is my target, with the dished stock low compression piston this should be perfect for the boosted version of the motor and let me see the max that we can make from the naturally aspirated version of the motor...getting closer...

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Btw, yesterday I had the chance to put the Vespa on the scales, the only mods I have that really lighten up the bike are a twelve cell Alien LiFe battery and an Akro pipe...I was rather shocked to see it weighed in at only 334lbs with about a gallon of fuel onboard....we then weighed a raw frame, literally, other than paint nothing installed in it at all, that was 59.5lbs....if they ever do switch to aluminum chassis construction these bikes will be actually be 300lbs little scooters!

[bunnybash]

very interesting update!!!

[bunnybash]

cricket cricket... :)

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

In the last thirty days I have been at the shop only 9 days or so for circumstances beyond my control. The head is ready, just need the time...cricket indeed.

[bunnybash]

Not a good enough excuse ;)

haha jk i still check up on this every second day

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Fair enough, maybe I should ask my doctor about LowT...or get the Red Bull Truck to make direct deliveries....

[bunnybash]

Fair enough, maybe I should ask my doctor about LowT...or get the Red Bull Truck to make direct deliveries....

Glad to see we are on the same page now ;)

[dkw12002]

At least you're not old. Speaking of which I had an interesting experience this morning. Rode my GSX-R1000 over to the Y to work out this am and saw the reserved-for-senior-citizen parking spot was open. This is in addition to handicapped parking, so anyway being 67, I parked my Gixxer in the spot. Some guy drove up right behind me, stopped and was probably ready to say something about it I think, until I pulled off my helmet. He smiled and moved on.

[jrflanne]

So, there is an advantage to being an old fart.

[dkw12002]

Yes, but that parking space is pretty much it. Unfortunately, this particular Y has more than it's share of codgers so I seldom get the spot. Well of course there is the senior discount on all Aprilias sold to seniors by af1, but I never remember to ask for it.

[bunnybash]

my lurking on this thread leaves me unsatisfied!! Micah, blow off those customers of yours and get to work!!! :O

[jrflanne]

I will be very interested to compare the built 300 with my 200, which is pretty damn zippy. I expect the 300 to be that much more so.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I posted a series of pics of the head in the "shop" thread...need to link em' over to this thread...looking good, only need time now. Sorry it has been so slow, at least it is my bike, of it were a customer bike it would have been done months ago.


Plenty of spare motors now, got two since project was started, hopefully this is exactly two more than I really need!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220887&d=1367977802

[bunnybash]

like i said, screw the customers!!! :) hahaha I will have to try to find the shop thread, never actually looked at it before!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Quick and dirty link:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?252952-What-s-in-the-AF1-Shop-(Volume-II)&p=3304993&viewfull=1#post3304993

[bunnybash]

updates??

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

It still runs fine....and nothing has been done...I am getting really tired of not getting it done (at least the Malossi head) and might just give up one of my Sunday's to make it happen soon enough. Btw, if ecu detect more than a 25% lambda trim it can trigger the check engine light...so fuel pressure will most likely need to be raised. Only update I have rig now.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Damn...looks like Aprilia Corsa wants to borrow my Vespa for Austin Moto GP, well at least an ART team does...to "rush" into playing with the head...or make sure it is stock reliable for them? Garage pass was the price I named...looks like I'm gonna get it too!

[jrflanne]

Hell, for a garage pass, they can borrow mine too. BTW, get the head on, it will be reliable. I mean, hell, what could a race team possibly do to a Vespa?

[bunnybash]

That is epic - thanks for the update, and I agree, you should just "get er done!" :)

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well t turns out BanzaiRX7 is pretty disappointed with the progress on my scooter too...so he has volunteered to come down and help me finish the job in a same day turn around sort of manner next Saturday or the one following! I am so tired of looking at that head sitting on my workbench taunting me...he really wants to see it get turbocharged and the dude is a wizard at making parts and making ecu's do things they should not really do...sort of like progress!

All ported, polished, surfaced and ready to rock....bigger vvalves equal bigger power on these things even with stock cylinder and piston and camshaft!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=213270&d=1360159364

[bunnybash]

DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!

That is some hotness of news... I may just have to move to America so that I can buy a Vespa and turbo charge it!!!!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Why would you have to move here to turbocharge your scooter? Serious question...


Turbocharging is so friggin sweet, using wasted energy, heat and pressure, to make your engine FAR more efficient no matter the altitude you may reside at, 1 bar boost is the same 15 psi manifold pressure whether you are at sea level or live in a city at a base elevation of 10k feet! I think turbos are the future of many efficiency driven vehicles.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220896&d=1367977994

[Rockynv]

Why would you have to move here to turbocharge your scooter? Serious question...

To have the guy know for always doing his best and being honest doing the job.

Some day I am tempted to swing by during Texas state fair to get some work done on my Sport City and a little of Micah's madness added to it.

[nimmnenkeks]

In Austria, a Vespa driver got 23,48PS only with the Malossi V4 Kit.
Now a german user offer a 280° cam for the 125-300 piston heads.
So with a modified original piston head with better valve design than Malossi, 280° cam, 76,05mm race piston (286ccm), and the 38mm ECU (the new G3 of MM MIU), 35PS and above should be possible.

[bunnybash]

Why would you have to move here to turbocharge your scooter? Serious question...

Cause no one in Australia has any balls to actually try anything like this! Seriously, shops won't even look at it!!! Plus my wife is American and it's probably time we moved to America for at least a couple of years and we sure as hell ain't going to drive everywhere in SoCal!!! So it may as well be a turbo charged 300!!! :)

[bunnybash]

In Austria, a Vespa driver got 23,48PS only with the Malossi V4 Kit.
Now a german user offer a 280° cam for the 125-300 piston heads.
So with a modified original piston head with better valve design than Malossi, 280° cam, 76,05mm race piston (286ccm), and the 38mm ECU (the new G3 of MM MIU), 35PS and above should be possible.

Got any links? I am sure that even if the sites are in German I could have some fun looking at the google translate versions!! :) More importantly has anyone got any video footage of these things!!!!

[Mike Holland]

In Austria, a Vespa driver got 23,48PS only with the Malossi V4 Kit.
Now a german user offer a 280° cam for the 125-300 piston heads.
So with a modified original piston head with better valve design than Malossi, 280° cam, 76,05mm race piston (286ccm), and the 38mm ECU (the new G3 of MM MIU), 35PS and above should be possible.

Add my airfilter mod and you'll get 35.3! :lol:

[nimmnenkeks]

links
http://www.vespa-forum.at/index.php?page=RGalleryUserGallery&userID=102

http://forum.vc-gu.at/download/file.php?id=12024&mode=view

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well today is the day for surgery, we start the operation at 11:15am and continue until it runs again. Let's hope the planning has been solid thus far. Going to try out initially on stock fuel pressure, if results are too lean then will bash in regulator till pressure goes from 2.5-3.5 Bar next week and try tuning again. If I can get just 20-22bhp I will be thrilled since my dyno is definitely conservative. Actually I may just replace the regulator with an external boost referenced item I bought for a long ago project with a Toyota MR2. I am gonna need this anyway since it allows for pressure fine tuning and I will need a little extra room in the tank for the SXV pump or RSVR pump once it goes boosted...if ever that happens.

I have plenty of dyno data from past runs so the differences should be easy enough to spot. Shooting for use of the stock piston (even if I have to flycut by hand valve pockets) since its design is pretty ideal for boost and the stock cam which is actually pretty close to right for the new valve diameters and compression ratio.

Fingers crossed that all goes well, I have two head gaskets and three thickness of base gaskets to hopefully set squish really close 0.8-1.0mm.


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220698&d=1367859239

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Head is on motor...going to eat now...back in chassis after lunch and with any luck running before five pm. Come on big power!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220697&d=1367859239

[jrflanne]

About freaking time. I wanna ride that bitch!

I will advise you Vespa riders out there who are looking for more power, DO IT.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Motor back in chassis, bleeding hydraulics, changing oil, filling and bleeding coolant...then off to the dyno? Let's sure as fuck hope the head and time spent porting it were worth the money and time sunk into it...anything less than 20 bhp is gonna be slightly sad. Had to get a little creative in some areas and could not get squish under 1.25mm but I am running what I got for now. One step closer to turbocharged right


Please may the blessings of the wheelie gods be upon me! This bitch better pick up the front tire with little effort leaving stop lights!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220699&d=1367859239

[nimmnenkeks]

Got any links? I am sure that even if the sites are in German I could have some fun looking at the google translate versions!! :) More importantly has anyone got any video footage of these things!!!!

http://forum.vc-gu.at/download/file.php?id=12024&mode=view

parts
http://www.vespa-forum.at/index.php?page=RGalleryUserGallery&userID=102

Keks

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Well some tuning will be required as will increasing fuel pressure or going to a slightly larger injector than the 158cc IWP 182 which is is only 158cc at 3 Bar...and the stock Vespa is 2.5 Bar. It did crest right at 20 bhp but very lean, need to adapt a PCIIIUSB or PCV onto the scoot to nail the fine tuning. Adding propane as a supplemental fuel took it to over 23 bhp at a CO reading of only 1.1-1.4%. (best power on this cylinder and head come at 3.8-4.2% CO) Tried an SXV injector but it was just too big, drowning in fuel rich. I really need a 180-200 cc Pico type injector for the best naturally aspirated tune, 23-25 bhp should really be possible with as much as 19-20 bhp by as little as 15 mph. No power loss anywhere in the rev range.

Initial riding impressions are much more snappy everywhere, with correct mixture this scooter is gonna be crazy fun to ride. Since it cruises fine on the lean side I will let it remain lean at cruise but open loop seems to come in at 50-60% TP so there is some easy tuning potential there. It will wheelie now...in a few weeks it might be a wheelie machine! The V4 head works like a champ!

I have a spare PCIIIUSB so it will probably get tasked with the Vespa. I am thinking of adding a MAP sensor, 2 Bar and using its 0-5v return signal for tuning the power commander, either that or simply tapping either pin 16 or 22 if I read the pinout right for the TPS signal. Definitely a learning experience day.




http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220700&d=1367859239

[bunnybash]

awww hell yeah!!!

I have the Aprilia Scarabeo 500cc fuel injector if you are interested in it... will just ship it across the Pacific! Not sure if it will help you in your quest or not.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Can you read the markings on that injector, should be IWP???

[jrflanne]

That thing sounds promising! Tune on, Brothah!

[banzairx7]

Here's a little video from Saturday of a bit of flame throwing along with a red hot header pipe. Make sure to turn down the volume, The dyno room is way loud so all you record is lots of over modulated noise.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHqWJ6Nd9F0

Here she is strapped to the dyno-
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fGrDyif92sE/UU8m8YJGoSI/AAAAAAAADbw/_Tyz0ajhJGQ/s970/IMAG0465.jpg

Glowing exhaust pics are always cool. It also shows just how lean it was running.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-f7ZKUtIPvMY/UU8m8aIgHMI/AAAAAAAADbw/5ad7o5EeL3s/s970/IMAG0471.jpg

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Thanks so much for adding the pics and video Banzai. I think the MAP based feedback for a PCV is the way to go...I need to add a second lambda port now too! I also need to figure out how to lock down the variator to tune every part of the load/speed range possible. This will definitely speed up the transition to boosted performance. I do want to get everything I can out of it naturally aspirated first however!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220701&d=1367859239

[bunnybash]

Can you read the markings on that injector, should be IWP???

Yeah it says "IWP 048"

Let me know if you want it or not...

[banzairx7]

IWP048= 215cc/min. Sounds perfect.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yep bunnybash that is exactly what we need. 158cc right now on the IWP 182 so that is almost perfect for the basic injector swap! Gonna pull fuel tank this next weekend and convert to return style fuel delivery system with external and adjustable fuel pressure regulator, should allow enough global fuel tuning range to trim to perfection with the PCV or PCIIIUSB.

[bunnybash]

ok let me know where to send it! Depending on how fast you want it I may have to ask you to kick in for postage costs, cause to get it to you before this weekend would cost $82, or else I could get it to you next week for $20. Yeah Australia sucks, and trust me I am not going to be making a cent or anything - we just got a stupid government that thought it would be a good idea to tax the hell out of anything that produces carbon - which has essentially killed our exporting business cause it costs so friggin much to post anything anywhere... sigh...

http://auspost.com.au/apps/international-parcel.html

Anyways let me know what you want to do!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Pm me your PayPal addy...I will happily send the $20 required, is that enough?

[bunnybash]

Pm sent, let's make this happen!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I will try and send payment tomorrow plus enough to cover PayPal fees as long as I have it left in my PayPal account after getting totally screwed on two eBay sales last year! Burying to drain last of that account anyway! I think the 215cc injector will be perfect IF I reset ecu to "virgin" so it has to learn all new trims based on the new injector size...if not will simply proceed with plan for adjustable fuel pressure regulator and the PCV to control the bigger injector. I like where this is headed...215cc is such a perfect size for my mods and if I get it spot on a solid 23-25 bhp should be easy!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

BunnyBash...check your PayPal...Game On!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Thanks to BanzaiRX7 the Vespa is now running with a PCIIIUSB installed and taking its load orders from a GSXR Nippon Denso 1.5 Bar MAP sensor. Tuning should be possible as soon as the larger injector gets here, the stock injector is at a 6% duty cycle at hot hot/lean idle...way too small for the soon to be rather angry little beast! We can now easily switch to a 2 Bar map sensor for boosted tuning once the plumbing is figured out....now...where to stash the water/methanol tank and 250 psi pump...hmmm...ideas?


In this pic you can barely see the end of the USB cord attached to PCIIIUSB located at front of battery tray. The battery itself if an Alien 12 cell LiFe unit because there is no such thing as too many cranking amps!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220706&d=1367859239

[banzairx7]

Depends on how much you want to spend on a pump. You can get a nice small one from Flightworks that will do 250psi and 1/2 liter per minute that is only 3" long and 1" diameter. My guess is that pump is several hundred dollars. Probably stuck with one of the giant auto pumps. That's gonna be tough to hide. If we figure out a way to control a second fuel injector you can run a much lower pump pressure with a standard fuel injector. Better mixture control too.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Still waiting for the bigger injector but thanks to Banzai we now have basic control over the fueling and the results are staggering to say the least! Peak power is still only 21-22bhp but holy shit, the thing wheelies off throttle now leaving lights, powerslides at speed and is getting down right dangerous! This is actually worth shooting some video of, to say the least other than the noise factor, I am in love al, over again! The wheelie factor on a scooter is so bizzaar, since there is a heavy weight bias towards the rear once the front lifts you better be ready to use the back brake to control it because throttle alone did not prove to be the best option.

Mods so far: Akrapovic full system, Malossi V4 head, ported and polished, modified stock airbox, 12v-5v power supply to run 1.5 Bar MAP sensor feeding signal to a PCIIIusb, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, 55 psi injection pressure required to use stock injector at a safe mixture level while still a little over 90% duty cycle on the small injector! All this and so far only one check engine light quickly fixed by simply deleting previously stored trims. The best part is on closed loop it runs exactly like stock, crack that throttle a little more and unholy hell for a scooter is unleashed.


Here is the freshly modded Akro can, internal baffle plate removed to allow for better power with db killer in place without any massive increase in noise!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220705&d=1367859239

[banzairx7]

5v regulator and map sensor-
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QhEbaCGaLak/UXxubmYYvbI/AAAAAAAAEQ8/JYeTA3Gqr2I/w729-h547/IMG_20130427_160846.jpg

Fuel pressure regulator and return line-
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oxPXRHVaH88/UXxufywISAI/AAAAAAAAERc/BfzMKz5GRmo/w729-h547/IMG_20130427_160918.jpg

[banzairx7]

I just wanted to add I now know why they don't make Vespas like this- People would die. I probably only got up to 60mph but there was no sign of the power dropping off. It just pulled hard from a stop on up. Then there is the tire spinning power in the low speeds. There is something inherently awesome about going a little sideways on a Vespa. Micah was more wheely happy than myself. With just a tiny yank on the bars you can loft the front wheel a few inches no problem. Micah had it up a good foot or more.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

It's funny, I was thinking earlier that with even a light passenger on the back this 300 Super as modified is going to be downright terrifying! I am gonna have to learn more of the rear brake wheelie control on our old "stunter" Zuma before doing it too much on the Vespa. I have always been a power wheelie for control type of wheelie rider, preferring the long multi-gear but acceleration based type of wheelie riding, to balance point type wheelie riding, which I can also do, for miles even, but only on powerful sport bikes due to my tendency towards a safe lower nose attitude compared to the nose high attitude used by real good wheelie riders. I prefer short but impressive power wheelies for fun, leaving stops, or over rises, or coming off corners. If modding the Akro internal baffle nets the result I expect and modding the intake to bias towards power in the 8-9k rpm range we should hit 22-25 bhp up top and with the right roller weights and variator mods this could be made VERY accessible!

Scott, I cannot thank you enough for all the help so far. Actually riding it just around the block after we played on the dyno the other day was a friggin' eye opener for me! With boost it will actually be downright dangerous. I am curious to see how far it ends up in naturally aspirated trim. With the Rexxer software and hardware I should be able to raise rev limit to a safe 10k. It was limiting at a true 9250-9380 (tel:9250-9380) rpm on the dyno with the stock mapping. Should ignition timing and fuel mapping and really just lambda trims and targets in the say 13-13.2 range the rest is cake. I am totally shocked at the potential power actually in this motor with such minimal mods. I am still using the stock piston and camshaft.

With some "real" motor parts like a proper CP piston and Carillo rod the bottom end should be capable of surviving pretty big power. These engines are built like tank motors compared to modern sport bike stuff yet they still have great potential. It's been real fun so far. With boost comes insanity and probably a LOT of learning about CVT tranny mods for survivability. I suspect cooling the belt is going to be a very real issue.

So fun to learn about these little Vespa motors. Just getting one right with modified bolt on parts may be real easy if unfortunately loud noise required.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220704&d=1367859239

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Hopefully I will get some pics from the modifications edited this week. As of this morning there were 2377 total pics in the que from four total cameras...editing? BunnyBash, did the postal folks say roughly how long I should be waiting for the larger injector by chance? It was tough (55 psig injection pressure) to keep duty cycle under 92%, once the larger injector is installed I can lower fuel pressure and re-zero lambda trims and get it properly dialed in. It's amazing now but once "finished" for NA trim (unless I got that Malossi cylinder and high comp piston) it should surprise anyone who rides it!

Boost only can come after we get n/a running to its full potential and have more or less full control over the fueling. I am gonna REXXER flash the ecu for 10k rev limit and advance the timing, I also want to alter closed loop target to about 13.2 af/r about everywhere, WFO fueling is damn near perfect with stock mapping and just extra fuel pressure so once injector swapped and dialed in the flash should be the final tuning hurdle to overcome.

Once boosted we have to switch to PCV and additional fueling control functionality, the PCV and Autotune module working together with a well sorted n/a setup should make tuning a much less arduous affair due to pressure inputs with some electronic dampening, we need to better sort the mechanical dampening too I suppose.

So excited about this project. It may actually lead to being able to sell pre built scooters to those with a need for a healthy dose of stupid with their scooter!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220703&d=1367859239

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Once again Banzai and Steve saved the day, the 300 Super made more progress. The SXV5.5 injector is back in the manifold, the PCIIIUSB used to dial down ecu trims to sub 25% of stock deviation. It is about as good as it is going to get for it naturally aspirated life right now. Airbox is gone, the long intake tract length was costing two bhp up top, where it needed it the most. 22.3 was the best corrected power I saw today and most runs averaged in the 20-21.5 bhp range with the db killer OUT, which was unacceptably loud. If I were using the Malossi alloy cylinder with flat top high comp piston I honestly think 24-25 bhp would be pretty easy. Peak power is about the same with db killer in place but at a loss of 1.5-2bhp across much of the driving range of the cvt trannie. The on throttle response is MASSIVLY improved, like a perfectly jetted flatslide carb but totally versatile. Wheelies and insane wheel spin are the norm now. With more power I should probably change down the final drive ratio. It has a 100 mph motor, would be fun to take it to Texas Mile and bust off a hundred mph Vespa pass for the scooter record?

Tranny mods like rollers and one size stiffer on rear clutch springs might do amazing shit, so might a lighter contra spring to use more of the motors tuneable rpm range while making acceleration borderline deadly! So many more of you hard core sport bike guys NEED to try out a Vespa 300, with a few mods it can leave 99% of street traffic DEAD even if they are trying...a well tuned scoot is simply demoralizing to cruiser riders that think their bikes are fast too, may be a bit mean, but, I love demonstrating tuned power to them!

Db killer is back in, 22 peak bhp, this is about as much as the piston and compression ratio allow. Fuel pressure back down to 35 psig now from 55, zero fall off to rev limit at now max of 72% on duty cycle for the injector at rich of peak tuning.

I think as a mod package, the Malossi V4 head, Akro pipe, modded stock airbox and 210cc injector are the way to go. Give it fuel, it will use only what it needs at cruise and a hell of a lot more under load. Add the Malossi bore and special piston to make it perfect, say 22 bhp in that trim, with stock drivability. It would probably make 19 or so with the stock pipe even. Dead stock mine did roughly 15.2 bhp at 1,500 miles.

It sounds like a friggin Moto 3 bike with the internal baffled cut from the Akro and the db killer out...way too loud but friggin fast! I think next is to swap my Brembo big bike caliper and mount I have been using on the GT200 we have there. The 278cc beast actually needs a powerful front brake now!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220702&d=1367859239

[jrflanne]

1:21AM and you are obsessing about the Vespa. Excellent! The thing sounds like a hoot! The Akra without the db killer is too loud.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

You are not kidding on Akro with no db killer! Yes, I was up late OCD-ing about whether or not to chase the bhp dragon a little further down the rabbit hole before adding boost. I want to build a clean, simple customer version of this motor now that it is refined to a science....need another scooter Jack? Mine has gotten to be a fairly complicated build but, eventually adding boost is making this a requirement. I was also shopping for variator parts and final drive stuff...OCD a bit, yes.

I think almost everyone needs a Vespa even they don't know it, and I think if anyone is on the fence about modding it a bit then taking mine for a spin back to back with a stocker should silence any doubts. At 22 bhp the friggin' thing is nuts, the difference in how it rides is night and day, far more than the extra 7 bhp on the dyno would suggest really.

One last item to get a handle on before boosting is upping the fuel trims in closed loop modes either through Rexxer or simply using part of a FatDuc to richen cruise a little bit...not a lot, just a bit. Right now if driven no harder than you would ride a stock bike it does still seem to get stock like fuel economy.

One aspect which caught me off guard on this project has been the potential in these motors, far more than I really expected using so many stock parts. The only thing I am gonna loose going boosted (other than a motor possibly) is underseat storage but locating the turbo where the airbox used to be is going to free up some precious real estate.


Much needed upgrades done now too like the donated BiTubo front shock from another totaled bike!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220884&d=1367977802

This Brembo front brake an adapter will be moved from the old GT200 over to the 300 Super now that real braking power is actually a much larger and more looming issue.


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220885&d=1367977802

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Taking kiddo out for lunch...please remind me if I forget to post the final "stock compression ratio" dyno files if I forget and you do not see a chart posted here in next few hours! The difference at top speed is a full 10 bhp or almost double the stock power!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

OK...as with any motor the dyno fails to show the whole story...but it should speak loudly enough from these graphs. I am a little sick that the db killer takes away so much wfo power, at throttle angles under 70% however it has no real effect on power and the cruise is so much quieter with it in, I am just not an "open pipe type" anymore, decades of dyno work will kill that sort of shit for ya'. The three traces shown are just dead stock, and current tune with db killer in place and not in place. If staying naturally aspirated I would have ordered a Malossi special high comp piston already today...part of still wants to but adding a turbocharger seems soooo much more fun, especially with much taller final drive gear to tame/take advantage of all that extra power!

This graph is in mph and I did not test super low speeds again because I have already hurt the centrifugal clutch a bit...before doing the tranny mods I will do a full pull from zero to rev limit though and the same with another dead stock 300 Sper, in that first 0-10mph speed range the difference is downright insane!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220734&d=1367868670

[banzairx7]

The other thing with that Akro pipe Micah didn't mention is we removed the internal baffle. It's now a straight through shot. It would be interesting to get a Db measurement on it fully uncorked.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

For those of you just starting to read this thread I have spent a lot of time today editing it from the first post on and adding pics where relevant. Start from the beginning and read through if you are serious about making your little docile Vespa 200/250/300 (tel:200/250/300) WAY faster than it ever should be!

Once this current setup is proven reliable the serious modifications will start! I am thinking we will be lucky to see 10 psi of boost in the end from the slightly large RH03B turbocharger....but...that will be a hell of a change from even the current level of insane!


Something wicked this way comes...I no longer own the KKK KP31, I traded it for a tiny Roots blower for a 50cc two stroke project. The new turbo is the one going on the Vespa, the KP31 is now on a 125cc twin cylinder Honda four stroke running alcohol on the salt flats!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158436&d=1300036717

I would love to get sponsored by Garrett and get a GT06 but for now...we use what I already spent a bonus on!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158435&d=1300036705


Final turbo teaser pic, just for reference it is a Hitachi or IHI, RH03B.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=158434&d=1300036693

[sleeper125IE]

Micah, i'm following this thread for months now since i last stumbled upon it searching for "GTS" and "tuning" , i finally decided to register to tell you how impressed i am with your progress !

I'm also a HP fanatic but i love riding scooters instead of MC's, i drive a 125 IE GTS, now with rapid bike easy fuel modulator, Akra, Dr Pulley sliders and stiffer clutch springs + mike's airbox mod and malossi airfilter and i love it, good mileage and a big surprise for the cagers at the traffic light :-)

Maybe i can learn something from your project(altough i do not want to ride boosted) so keep up the good work !!

[bunnybash]

Micah!!!

Ok So the fuel pump showed back up on my doorstep today, not sure why it got returned to sender!!!! Anyways tomorrow I will drop down to the post office again to resend. I might just label it "plastic toy" on the customs form instead of "engine part" lol

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Funny how that works...you know it got 99% of the way to me across the globe before some sorting place sent it back! I say sure, verify address and throw back in post. I really just need that injector for testing a "bolt on" version of this kit. Thanks for the update!

As for the 125cc GTS, we do not get those here in the USA, but supposedly the top and bottom ends are nearly identical so much may apply to that scoot as well.

Hmmmm.....can't get this off my mind!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220893&d=1367977994

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Shit...meant to post this pic...cannot get either the throttle body mods OR the turbocharger off my mind!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220896&d=1367977994

[jrflanne]

Hey Micah, remember you gave me a LV db killer for my Akro. It is middle ground between stock and nothing as far as noise goes. Probably power-wise also, I would surmise.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yes, I am actually going to try the Leo Vince db killer in my Akro pipe now, I loved how yours ended up sounding. That is about a perfect compromise on the noise front!

[jrflanne]

Well, maybe I'll roll out to AF1 on the Vespa. Need to check the valves anyway and we can check it out.

[sleeper125IE]

Does the leo DB killer fit without modifying ? i have the PV0019 Akra DB killer installed, a bit more noise but allot more growl but i'm looking for even more 'growl' :-)

ps the injection(except the mapping) and the cilinder head are identical, cilinder to but the bore is different between the 125 and 300.
i'm usingthe rapid bike easy and Akra labeled for a 300 btw...

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Do you know the rpm where the rev limiter kills power on the 125cc motor version? I am looking for an easy way to add some rev up top, 9350 rpm actual seems to where I am hitting rev limit according to PCIIIUSB data which is pretty damn accurate. With boost I will be migrating to PCV running semi closed loop trimmed against manifold pressure, I really want to know how far Piaggio revs the 125cc version of the motor, this tells safe valve train rpm limit, I can calculate safe max piston speed easy enough, I think it is a little over 11,500 for the stroke of the 278cc motor.

[sleeper125IE]

the rev limiter should be around 10.500rpm on the 125 IE, i can barely get 10.450 with the DR pulley sliders at topspeed so i did not hit the rev limiter anymore since then.

i only measured RPM with the sliders so i have no idea on what rpm exactly the limiter kicks in before the sliders but it should be pretty close, the sliders prevent that last bit of RPM to let her kick in the limiter.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Sweet news...an extra thousand rpm would get me just over 100 mph...probably still need taller gearing once on boost just keep front lift in check. Now to see if it's possible to load the "wrong" map into my ecu for fun...does the 125 ie use same orange banded fuel injector? If so this might also allow me to go from -40 trims in PCIIIUSB to close to zero trims with my big ass injector...


There is really no reason to raise rev limiter past where the motor makes peak power, my current rev limit hits right where the motor is really starting to pull hard....annoying!

What is your take on the sliders vs. rollers thing? I have used both, both work but there is something almost sublime about the sliders, can't quite put my finger on it though?

[sleeper125IE]

i think i have the orange banded injector but i will look tomorrow to confirm...

i love the sliders, i tested the malossi and polini 9 roller variator and the polini was the fastest in the average comparisation with an average of 3,4sec faster from 0-70kmh on the GPS(average taken from 5 runs on the same road and same conditions), the downside from the sportsvariators are the cost and the maintenance.

then i tested the sliders that where recommended for my engine(6.5gr) and i was baffled, almost the same performance as the polini(average of 0.3sec slower) for 1/4 of the cost + the sliders wil last 30.000 miles, the rollers in the polini 2000-3000 miles...
the only thing i needed to do was to put in some stiffer clutch springs because the take-off was 'boggy', now running the red malossi springs(the 125 does'nt have much torque) and i flies from a dead stop :-)

i recently driven a brand new 125 IE with remus exhaust and stock variator, i could clearly tell that the stock variator was not making any rev's under 60kmh on the dash while mine with the sliders just 'screams' +-7500rpm from 10 to 90kmh(variator range) on the dash and that is what makes it faster, the variator is held sooner and longer at almost peak power from a dead stop.
i think if i go to 6gr sliders i can pinch of some more time but that will kill mileage and is'nt always that fun for cruising.

[sleeper125IE]

This is a photo of my injector, i'm sorry for the crappy iphone pic but i think you can see the necessary details...

221043

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Yes, exact same injector...which is about correct size on the 125 ie.

[sleeper125IE]

nice to know, tnx Micah !

[sleeper125IE]

also, on a Belgian vespa forum we have somebody that sees his fuel lines perrish before his eyes and another member's vespa turned into a big ball of flames during his trip to italy(maybe there is a connection ?) but somebody else that also is a mechanic was talking about a vapor lock waiting to happen with the routing of the stock fuel lines, what's your vision about that Micah ?

[banzairx7]

Vapor lock isn't possible on the EFI Vespas. The fuel pump sits in the fuel tank. If it was external then maybe... but it isn't.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I could see some "boil off" happening in the fuel line near the motor due to rising heat after the scooter is parked...but that would at worst add only a few extra cranking cycles before there was enough to run properly. To set the bike on fire would be quite easy if a fuel line quick coupler were installed improperly.

Doing the REXXER flash right now, changing target af/r's in closed loop to 13.0-13.2, upping rev limit to 10,400rpm and adding four degrees of ignition advance across the board as a first step...really cool friggin package that REXXER. Nothing crazy with fuel trims, need to see how this round of flashing works on a stock and on my 300 first. Once we get full software editor version the tuning possibilities are insane...turbocharging may get much easier since PCIIIUSB or PCV trims can be edited into the stock ecu once we are happy with them...cleaning up some clutter.

Once a near perfect basic flash is worked out for the Basic Power Upgrades like the Malossi V4 head, pipe and modded airbox the possibility of making your Vespa wicked will be as easy as buying the above mentioned parts, and buying an injector and ecu flash from us...roadmap to pure scootering insanity! I love it!

Rexxer plugs into the diagnostic connector, the + side of the battery and ground....

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221321&d=1368474597

It is not a fast process to copy the stock map file to make edits...but so far everything is looking like we can play with it!

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221322&d=1368474597

20 minutes later...still downloading....

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221323&d=1368474597

[viasevenvai]

I could see some "boil off" happening in the fuel line near the motor due to rising heat after the scooter is parked...but that would at worst add only a few extra cranking cycles before there was enough to run properly. To set the bike on fire would be quite easy if a fuel line quick coupler were installed improperly.

Doing the REXXER flash right now, changing target af/r's in closed loop to 13.0-13.2, upping rev limit to 10,400rpm and adding four degrees of ignition advance across the board as a first step...really cool friggin package that REXXER. Nothing crazy with fuel trims, need to see how this round of flashing works on a stock and on my 300 first. Once we get full software editor version the tuning possibilities are insane...turbocharging may get much easier since PCIIIUSB or PCV trims can be edited into the stock ecu once we are happy with them...cleaning up some clutter.

Once a near perfect basic flash is worked out for the Basic Power Upgrades like the Malossi V4 head, pipe and modded airbox the possibility of making your Vespa wicked will be as easy as buying the above mentioned parts, and buying an injector and ecu flash from us...roadmap to pure scootering insanity! I love it!

That is awesome. VTC (Vespa Traction Control) would be nice. VWC, VLC, VABS......if you get around to it :)

[sleeper125IE]

i think i need to send my engine to you guys so you can do the same on my 125 :-) (if i had a 300 i was already transferring the money for a NA kit right now :-p )

if i see what i managed to do with the engine with plug and play stuff and some fine tuning i can only imagine what you guys would do with it :-D

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

It would not be that hard to adapt a Bazzaz ZfiTC to the scooter if traction control is really desired, I prefer the rawness however and not relying on electronics to save my ass...though as my BMW car has shown me sometimes those electronics are smarter and sharper than I am!

The thing that surprises me is how few Vespa riders do anything more than cosmetic mods. There is no magic in what we have been doing, we just decided to see where the motor could go with SIMPLE mods and this where we have gotten to so far.

If anyone wants a pre built Vespa 300 "SUPER" I suppose we can pretty easily add a mod package to the new sale of a bike. For 99.99% of owners the Malossi V4 head (ported for obvious reason) along with their high compression big bore cylinder, an Akro pipe, some sliders and a modified airbox combined with the 200-215cc injector and a quick reflash would be about as far as you would want to go, and should be about as reliable as stock...belt life will be shorter as will rear clutch life, other than that the bike would be stock like but with big (for a scooter) power while still getting really good fuel economy.

Anyone have a slider weight recommendation for me? Gonna have try a few sets before I replace the belt. Dyno is down for a week or so until new control computer is in and online...thanks lightning!

[sleeper125IE]

Micah, how much do you estimate the N/A upgrade kit you are planning to sell ?

i'm on the fence for buying a slightly used 300 engine and plant it under my 125 but i do not now if that would work, i have a electric waterpump, the 300 mehcanical, and is the subframe for the engine the same etc ??
if this engine would fit without a load of problems im interested in your upgrade kit :-)

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have a couple of subframe engine holder assemblies that bolt onto the larger chassis from wrecked scooters, if yours is different then I know where to grab one from for cheap. We are not actually stocking Malosdi parts really right now, so we would need to get that ball rolling with either an importer or direct to Malossi before I could quote accurate pricing. The porting takes 3 hours in total to make pretty so that part is about $300, injectors are about $100 each (obviously only one required) and once we get the flashes refined to the point of being exactly right they will be $200 for any computer shipped in. Airbox mod is an at home easy free thing, get the pipe of your choice $200-$600 range. On Malossi's home page they have a complete cylinder, piston and head kit priced out at around €750.

Not sure this is totally helpful but should give a good idea. Final drive gear sets are about €98 and new bearings and instal take about an hour if motor is already out of chassis. This would be a purely optional thing and definitely not required unless a high top speed is desired more than strong acceleration with a close to stock top speed. With rev limit at 10,400 rpm the stock gears should allow for about a 90 mph real top speed.


Pics from playing around with porting a throttle body...I have never done this on an efi bike but back in the carb days....this sort of thing worked pretty well IF air velocity was high enough at the throttle plate to matter...it definitely is on the Vespa! Here you can see the bolt heads ground flush and a bit of edging done on the trailing edge of the throttle plate....

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221324&d=1368474728


Looking down the throttle body...no more obstructions, can do more, this was 20 minutes of playing around with a spare TB to make sure I would not fuck up my TB when it came time to play with the grinder again...had to kill a little time waiting for kiddo to show up for ride home from town....


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221325&d=1368474728

This is the back side...compare to earlier pics of the dead stock TB, flow is improved by about 10%, this however means nothing, a bigger hole always flows more air, we care about trapping efficiency!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221326&d=1368474728


Front side grinds...perfect seal still so it looks like a go to try this mod next!


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221328&d=1368474728


A little polish...so it looks cool, nothing to find here in terms of power gains from making something shiny...


http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=221327&d=1368474728

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Rexxer flash installed and running...much crisper response from part throttle, no more backfires at all. Fun damn scooter, due to my current lack of a working dyno I did some street trim learning on big hills around here...so far so good!

[jrflanne]

Ima gonna hafta rida that thinga. It sounds like a serious hoot! The Malossi kit on my GT200 is great. I even battle down I10 in Hosetown on it. The look a little weird at me on the scooter and all but the 300? It is sounding like some of your usual awesome work.

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Got the dyno back online...calibrating now, will hopefully get a chance to see if the Rexxer flash was able to nail my af/r target and see if there is any more power to be had above 9.3k rpm, rev limiter now 10,400rpm. Got a big backlog of dyno bikes from being without working dyno for a week so...may or may not happen.