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irie
08-08-2009, 04:47 PM
I run 3 SXV550's - two for the road (wife's and myself), and my road race bike. The road bikes sometimes have a pretty hard life at high temperatures and very low speeds (like riding in the Pyranees for example), and the RR bike obviously has the tits thrashed off it.

Since the road bikes do about 3,000 miles a year and get their oil changed every 400 miles, and the race bike gets it's oil changed after every race meeting, that works out to about 25 oil changes a year!

Water in the oil is the biggest enemy of these engines, so I decided that I wanted to test for water in oil each oil change as part of monitoring engine performance so I searched on the internet to see what was available.

Imagine my surprise when I found that a local company, literally 15 minutes down the road, specialise in oil testing and have all sorts of test kits available!

So I bought a test kit for 360 (that's about $580) which is good for 50 tests working out to be 7.20 ($11.60) per test, thereafter much cheaper since only the two reagents have to be purchased.

Here's a link to Kittiwake (http://www.kittiwake.com/oil_test_kits.htm)

Changed the oil in the 3 bikes (all 3 due a change) and all tests came out at 0% water in the oil. So I thought I'd make sure the test worked correctly by adding a drop of water to some oil and do a dummy test. Water content went off the scale so the test was obviously working correctly.

Might seem expensive but as part of the total cost of running the bikes, oil changes, filters, engine rebuilds,tyres, crash damage, and general wear and tear it seems a sensible precaution.

10pointjames
08-08-2009, 05:25 PM
I run 3 SXV550's - two for the road (wife's and myself), and my road race bike. The road bikes sometimes have a pretty hard life at high temperatures and very low speeds (like riding in the Pyranees for example), and the RR bike obviously has the tits thrashed off it.

Since the road bikes do about 3,000 miles a year and get their oil changed every 400 miles, and the race bike gets it's oil changed after every race meeting, that works out to about 25 oil changes a year!

Water in the oil is the biggest enemy of these engines, so I decided that I wanted to test for water in oil each oil change as part of monitoring engine performance so I searched on the internet to see what was available.

Imagine my surprise when I found that a local company, literally 15 minutes down the road, specialise in oil testing and have all sorts of test kits available!

So I bought a test kit for 360 (that's about $580) which is good for 50 tests working out to be 7.20 ($11.60) per test, thereafter much cheaper since only the two reagents have to be purchased.

Here's a link to Kittiwake (http://www.kittiwake.com/oil_test_kits.htm)

Changed the oil in the 3 bikes (all 3 due a change) and all tests came out at 0% water in the oil. So I thought I'd make sure the test worked correctly by adding a drop of water to some oil and do a dummy test. Water content went off the scale so the test was obviously working correctly.

Might seem expensive but as part of the total cost of running the bikes, oil changes, filters, engine rebuilds,tyres, crash damage, and general wear and tear it seems a sensible precaution.

Very good info Irie. A lot cheaper than what it will cost if you don't catch it in time.

soyrico
08-08-2009, 10:07 PM
Good find Irie! I wonder if we could get a better deal on a group buy. What do you think guys?

Beau1K
08-08-2009, 10:28 PM
Group buys not allowed on this site.

amauri
08-08-2009, 11:15 PM
Why not use the free method you can do yourself at home and have instantaneous results?

soyrico
08-09-2009, 12:10 AM
Yeah your right...I'll try heating the oil up on a pan again and the drain method next week. Hopefully I don't see water.

amauri
08-09-2009, 07:12 AM
The first and most obvious test is condensation on the oil tank cap.
If it is white milky foam, you've got water in the oil, period.
No need for further testing at this point.

If you don't see foam, take a spoonful of oil from your crankcase and heat it a on a hot plate or big spoon and torch.
You want the oil hot enough to start smoking.
Obviously, you must be careful not to start a fire.

Make sure the sample you heat up is taken from a hot drain and not from a cold motor that has been sitting for a few days prior to draining.
If there is water in your oil, you don't want a sample that has had time to settle.

irie
08-09-2009, 08:59 AM
Why not use the free method you can do yourself at home and have instantaneous results?

Because this tells me how much is in there, rather than just whether there's water or not, so I can see whether there's a trend ...

amauri
08-09-2009, 09:36 AM
OK, a valid point.

Just keep in mind, that even a minute amount of water in the oil is trouble waiting to happen.
Knowing the exact amount may be helpful, but either way it has to come apart.

soyrico
08-09-2009, 02:27 PM
OK, a valid point.

Just keep in mind, that even a minute amount of water in the oil is trouble waiting to happen.
Knowing the exact amount may be helpful, but either way it has to come apart.

Amauri....question for you. I just drained all the oil from the bike and no water or coloration at all. Rad water is still full as well.

Is it possible that the that Latte color on my oil cap came from moister in the air? While in Baja we rode 60 mile in rain. We rode a total of 550 miles in three days... no water loss.:confused::confused: I'm just puzzled at this point.

king karl
08-09-2009, 02:38 PM
if you have an 06 07 motor with orange sealant, you may as well strip the motor now.

leaving it will only increase the damage, they all go at some point :cheers:

soyrico
08-09-2009, 02:51 PM
I understand where your coming from Karl. My 07 RXV 450 has the orange sealant but if its not leaking I don't want to rip it apart yet. Just need to know some facts first. Can moisture in the air cause the latte under the oil cap? I started noticing the latte after the rain ride. Maybe its a coincidence. I don't know for sure yet.

king karl
08-09-2009, 03:52 PM
I understand where your coming from Karl. My 07 RXV 450 has the orange sealant but if its not leaking I don't want to rip it apart yet. Just need to know some facts first. Can moisture in the air cause the latte under the oil cap? I started noticing the latte after the rain ride. Maybe its a coincidence. I don't know for sure yet.

mine had latte under the cap for 18 months, then the oil turned latte.

after a rebuild 12mths ago there has been no latte under the cap... make of that what you will ;)

amauri
08-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Is it possible that the that Latte color on my oil cap came from moister in the air?

The only way to be sure is to test your oil.
Try the hot plate method and send a sample to the lab for analysis.

kimzx1000r
08-09-2009, 08:45 PM
If you really want to be sure send it out and have it tested. You will know exactly whats in the oil, tests are only about 20 dollars. Amauri and Karl are giving you good advice here. Take the time to find out exactly whats happening it can save you allot of money down the road!


The only way to be sure is to test your oil.
Try the hot plate method and send a sample to the lab for analysis.

dazmotronic
04-08-2010, 04:07 AM
The only way to be sure is to test your oil.
Try the hot plate method and send a sample to the lab for analysis.

Hi, this is good sound advise.:plus::plus:

A couple of things I found out during my first oil test at our local catipillar dealer who do all sorts of tests on everything and everything.
The heating of the oil has to be done at an exact temp to highlight water! there are other componments in oil or its additives that glow as little stars when heated at different temps, just like water will.
The so called late under the oil tank cap can be and often is condensation and with a good hot run will evaporate, like a 15min work out.
Mine gets a little white foam in cooler weather if just started and run for a short time, I have a clear vent hose running to a catch can from my oil tank breather and it will show a little condersation when not run to a good hot opperating temp, goes away when everything gets run up to temp and ridden for some distance.

This does not mean I have water in my oil.
I did a reseal on my non leaking 3200km old 07 sxv just for saftey sake and to freshen up a few internals.

I have done 5 track days at about 150km each outing, changed my oil each outing and had Catipillar test it for all in sundrie, no water at all at every test, no coolant zerro. I still get a little latte on cool days. My ST4s shows a little milky film on the oil sight glass if only run and not full heated, also goes away when nice and hot, summer here in NZ 30*c winter 1*c.

Catipillar also pull apart your oil filters wash them and test the goop that is caucht in them to further understand what wear is going on in the engines and gearboxes, not bad for $30 a test, the tech at Cat showed me through their whole lab, good stuff.

By all means treat any sign of latte, condensation and water with the utmost respect, with such a widly known problem with poor case sealing/design a full oil test every now and then is very cheep insurance.

Danneh
08-06-2010, 09:58 AM
mine had latte under the cap for 18 months, then the oil turned latte.

after a rebuild 12mths ago there has been no latte under the cap... make of that what you will ;)

Any damage to crank at this point? Damage overall / at all? Planning rebuild at end of this year.



Hi, this is good sound advise.

A couple of things I found out during my first oil test at our local catipillar dealer who do all sorts of tests on everything and everything.
The heating of the oil has to be done at an exact temp to highlight water! there are other componments in oil or its additives that glow as little stars when heated at different temps, just like water will.
The so called late under the oil tank cap can be and often is condensation and with a good hot run will evaporate, like a 15min work out.
Mine gets a little white foam in cooler weather if just started and run for a short time, I have a clear vent hose running to a catch can from my oil tank breather and it will show a little condersation when not run to a good hot opperating temp, goes away when everything gets run up to temp and ridden for some distance.

This does not mean I have water in my oil.
I did a reseal on my non leaking 3200km old 07 sxv just for saftey sake and to freshen up a few internals.

I have done 5 track days at about 150km each outing, changed my oil each outing and had Catipillar test it for all in sundrie, no water at all at every test, no coolant zerro. I still get a little latte on cool days. My ST4s shows a little milky film on the oil sight glass if only run and not full heated, also goes away when nice and hot, summer here in NZ 30*c winter 1*c.

Catipillar also pull apart your oil filters wash them and test the goop that is caucht in them to further understand what wear is going on in the engines and gearboxes, not bad for $30 a test, the tech at Cat showed me through their whole lab, good stuff.

By all means treat any sign of latte, condensation and water with the utmost respect, with such a widly known problem with poor case sealing/design a full oil test every now and then is very cheep insurance.


So latte cap doesn't always mean its taking in coolant, could be caused by obsessive washing then?

How hot of a ride does it take to get rid of it and make sure it's condensation going on?

As i dont seem to be loosing any coolant and oil looking fresh, makes me wonder.

This is what oil looked like at >120C on the stove, difficult to get it just right (100C?) isnt it :P
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8524/dsc00758q.th.jpg (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/dsc00758q.jpg/)

This is what the sample looked like at extraction.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2189/dsc00746f.th.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/dsc00746f.jpg/)

Oil cap at 16 july -10, 2 changes ago... Looked the same last oil change.
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2599/dsc00653x.th.jpg (http://img836.imageshack.us/i/dsc00653x.jpg/)

Also found latte in oil tank vent hose, the end connecter to oiltank.

king karl
08-06-2010, 10:28 AM
Any damage to crank at this point? Damage overall / at all? Planning rebuild at end of this year.



no damage to crank, but cams were mullered.

cams are fecking dear now too :crybaby:

Danneh
08-06-2010, 12:34 PM
no damage to crank, but cams were mullered.

cams are fecking dear now too :crybaby:

2cams are about same as for 1 crank

how did it feel the last couple of hours before all the oil went milkshake? you think damage occured over the last couple of hours or from start of lattecap?

king karl
08-06-2010, 01:48 PM
2cams are about same as for 1 crank

how did it feel the last couple of hours before all the oil went milkshake? you think damage occured over the last couple of hours or from start of lattecap?

the bike ran fine, but the latte was eating away at the motor like a cancer from the start :crybaby:

Danneh
08-06-2010, 05:05 PM
If bike runs fine, you could just put in the worn cams upon rebuild... or any reason not to? i mean making this cost effective.

were the more wear than just cam lobes? What did main and rod bearings look like? copper or still shiny?

king karl
08-06-2010, 05:18 PM
If bike runs fine, you could just put in the worn cams upon rebuild... or any reason not to? i mean making this cost effective.

were the more wear than just cam lobes? What did main and rod bearings look like? copper or still shiny?

Cal rebuilt the motor, if its 06 or 07 it NEEDS rebuilding at some point, the longer you leave it the more damage it will do... so is not cost effective to not rebuild asap

soyrico
08-06-2010, 06:10 PM
Danneh, Take Karl's advise and try not to wait much longer. As you can see from my post on this topic I was having the latte under the cap issue for a long time (just like your cap in the picture). 80cc of oil loss (common) then it got worse. Water level was fine and no river crossing or swimming with my RXV. Always had latte under cap when I returned from ride and a complete oil change.

With the good advice from the folks on this forum I jumped in with both feet and ripped the engine apart to reseal. It took me two tries but I got sealed perfect. Zero latte under the cap now I mean zero! I'm always shocked when I remove the cap and I don't see latte now.

I did see the damage from waiting to long though. Valve buckets were slightly pitted but still usable. My cams and crank were fine. Barrings had to be replaced.

gromm415
08-06-2010, 10:29 PM
Danneh, Take Karl's advise and try not to wait much longer. As you can see from my post on this topic I was having the latte under the cap issue for a long time (just like your cap in the picture). 80cc of oil loss (common) then it got worse. Water level was fine and no river crossing or swimming with my RXV. Always had latte under cap when I returned from ride and a complete oil change.

With the good advice from the folks on this forum I jumped in with both feet and ripped the engine apart to reseal. It took me two tries but I got sealed perfect. Zero latte under the cap now I mean zero! I'm always shocked when I remove the cap and I don't see latte now.

I did see the damage from waiting to long though. Valve buckets were slightly pitted but still usable. My cams and crank were fine. Barrings had to be replaced.

how long did you ride it like that?

soyrico
08-07-2010, 12:52 AM
how long did you ride it like that? I want to say I put close to 2K miles on it with the latte gradually getting worse. Lots of oil changes for sure. I even flushed and cleaned the oil reservoir a few times to get all the latte out.

gromm415
08-07-2010, 09:43 AM
thanks soyrico.

soyrico
08-07-2010, 12:11 PM
thanks soyrico.

Just don't wait as long as I did.

Danneh
08-07-2010, 01:01 PM
Danneh, Take Karl's advise and try not to wait much longer. As you can see from my post on this topic I was having the latte under the cap issue for a long time (just like your cap in the picture). 80cc of oil loss (common) then it got worse. Water level was fine and no river crossing or swimming with my RXV. Always had latte under cap when I returned from ride and a complete oil change.

With the good advice from the folks on this forum I jumped in with both feet and ripped the engine apart to reseal. It took me two tries but I got sealed perfect. Zero latte under the cap now I mean zero! I'm always shocked when I remove the cap and I don't see latte now.

I did see the damage from waiting to long though. Valve buckets were slightly pitted but still usable. My cams and crank were fine. Barrings had to be replaced.

Your input on the topics means much... Sucks bad to tare it down in mid season, and also wait for spare parts to arrive. But it seems to be worth the effort.

If it has been leaking, will I be able to spot it in the "V"? or where ever it is...

Wanna try those vitron orings for cylinders, what size am i looking for?

Have been reading up at Jim Huberts blog..
Looking over tools required. Any comments, tips?

Also... how does water magically remain invisible in oil, when its really easy to see when you test add some yourself?

soyrico
08-07-2010, 10:28 PM
Your input on the topics means much... Sucks bad to tare it down in mid season, and also wait for spare parts to arrive. But it seems to be worth the effort.

If it has been leaking, will I be able to spot it in the "V"? or where ever it is...

Wanna try those vitron orings for cylinders, what size am i looking for?

Have been reading up at Jim Huberts blog..
Looking over tools required. Any comments, tips?

Also... how does water magically remain invisible in oil, when its really easy to see when you test add some yourself?

If it has been leaking, will I be able to spot it in the "V"? or where ever it is...

Hard to say where it could be leaking but possible the "V". Allen was very helpful and posted a pic that shows what the "V" when it fail. http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206510

Wanna try those vitron orings for cylinders, what size am i looking for?
Im not sure what those are. Are you talking about the o'ring that sits below the liner? If so I used the stock one. Amauri went into detail about liner deck height which you should read. Just do some searching on deck height/shims. Fortunately my new liners were within spec.

Have been reading up at Jim Huberts blog..
Looking over tools required. Any comments, tips?
You will need the some special tools for sure. Flywheel puller, Cam gear tool 9100843, small three arm pulley for starters. If you change the half shells you'll need the tool for that.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198670&highlight=rebuild+project

Allens how to on timing: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186943&page=2

Also... how does water magically remain invisible in oil, when its really easy to see when you test add some yourself? Something is happening at the molecular lever and that's where some expertise is needed on that question.

Danneh
08-08-2010, 04:27 AM
If it has been leaking, will I be able to spot it in the "V"? or where ever it is...

Hard to say where it could be leaking but possible the "V". Allen was very helpful and posted a pic that shows what the "V" when it fail. http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206510

Wanna try those vitron orings for cylinders, what size am i looking for?
Im not sure what those are. Are you talking about the o'ring that sits below the liner? If so I used the stock one. Amauri went into detail about liner deck height which you should read. Just do some searching on deck height/shims. Fortunately my new liners were within spec.

Have been reading up at Jim Huberts blog..
Looking over tools required. Any comments, tips?
You will need the some special tools for sure. Flywheel puller, Cam gear tool 9100843, small three arm pulley for starters. If you change the half shells you'll need the tool for that.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198670&highlight=rebuild+project

Allens how to on timing: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186943&page=2

Also... how does water magically remain invisible in oil, when its really easy to see when you test add some yourself? Something is happening at the molecular lever and that's where some expertise is needed on that question.

Great input! Cant belive you took the time to help sort all that out, thanks :)

Cant belive the prices they charge for the tools, it's insane! and the puller dont even come with a bolt at 89.96 a piece... why not use a 3 arm gear puller with spacers behind the flywheel for ~20, will it be regreted? how so?

as for half shells, looks like it can be milled out of Nylon plastic. isn't it just a drive, that you whack till it comes out/goes in? Tool is ~150 for in and 54.24 for out. Over 200 to be able to change crank bearings...

Crank locker I think is fare in price/design ratio about 60 and it looks clever.

Cam 6mm locking pin i cant seem to find anywhere, or any substitute for it either. Help?

know what; italians might be high maintainance but it's worthwile. I think ill just invest in the needed tools listed at Jims blog. Alot cheaper to buy a puller than a flywheel anyways :P

Where should i buy parts and tools from? living in sweden naturally i wanna go for Ulitmate parts or any other europe located store.


Test for water in oil, http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/787/detecting-water-in-oil

Yascher
08-08-2010, 09:05 AM
it looks clever.

Cam 6mm locking pin i cant seem to find anywhere, or any substitute for it either. Help?



screwdriver of equal dia works just fine

soyrico
08-08-2010, 11:27 AM
screwdriver of equal dia works just fine


That's what I use to.

soyrico
08-08-2010, 12:02 PM
Great input! Cant belive you took the time to help sort all that out, thanks :)

Cant belive the prices they charge for the tools, it's insane! and the puller dont even come with a bolt at 89.96 a piece... why not use a 3 arm gear puller with spacers behind the flywheel for ~20, will it be regreted? how so?

as for half shells, looks like it can be milled out of Nylon plastic. isn't it just a drive, that you whack till it comes out/goes in? Tool is ~150 for in and 54.24 for out. Over 200 to be able to change crank bearings...

Crank locker I think is fare in price/design ratio about 60 and it looks clever.

Cam 6mm locking pin i cant seem to find anywhere, or any substitute for it either. Help?

know what; italians might be high maintainance but it's worthwile. I think ill just invest in the needed tools listed at Jims blog. Alot cheaper to buy a puller than a flywheel anyways :P

Where should i buy parts and tools from? living in sweden naturally i wanna go for Ulitmate parts or any other europe located store.


Test for water in oil, http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/787/detecting-water-in-oil


ant belive the prices they charge for the tools, it's insane! and the puller dont even come with a bolt at 89.96 a piece... why not use a 3 arm gear puller with spacers behind the flywheel for ~20, will it be regreted? how so?

I think someone found a crank puller that was for a different bike that fits but I don't know if it was ever tested on the XV engine. Might have been Kimzx1000r... Not 100% sure. I'd use the puller tool for sure on the flywheel. I can hit it with a few tiny blast on the air tool and it pops off so easy and with very little damage to the penny. Just stick a penny on the end of the bolt first.

as for half shells, looks like it can be milled out of Nylon plastic. isn't it just a drive, that you whack till it comes out/goes in? Tool is ~150 for in and 54.24 for out. Over 200 to be able to change crank bearings...

I didn't buy the driver tool so I took it to my local Aprilia shop. After seeing how its done, the driver tool is needed for sure. Also the driver is designed to press the half shells to the right depth. That is my next investment. Impotent: Don't forget to press the new shells in the same exact position they came out. Amauri sketched a beautiful and talented drawing for us:http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/tongue2.gif http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207846&highlight=half+shell+install

know what; italians might be high maintainance but it's worthwile. I think ill just invest in the needed tools listed at Jims blog. Alot cheaper to buy a puller than a flywheel anyways :P

The crank shaft gear was a pain in the ass for me to remove at first. I used a small three arm puller to get it off. I also had to grind a puller arm a little to get a snug grip on the gear and NOT damage the case. When you get to that stage just ask for advise or buy the tool.

Where should i buy parts and tools from? living in sweden naturally i wanna go for Ulitmate parts or any other europe located store.

Im sure if you post something about where to buy in your area you will get some info.

Danneh
08-08-2010, 01:11 PM
Cant thank you enough soyrico! great to have a nice guy help out finding necessary info at it's best :) Giving first hand experience heads ups and so on... sweet :)