Questions about 600 mile service for Mana owners?

[Motopsycho]

I have a theory about some of the problems with oil leaks and oil burning that some owners encounter and others don't worldwide. It requires an accurate answer so please check your dealer receipts.

Fact. the 600 mile service does not call for an oil change. The first oil change is due at 6000 miles per Aprilia.

Fact. the oil bath only lubricates the engine not the transmission or clutch which means there is far less metal generated during the break in process and this allows the factory to call for the change at 6000 miles. It also may mean that with Nikasil barrels or chrome rings it would take a long time to fully break in. This jives with reports that the engines seem to continually gain power after even 1000 miles.

My dealer and I'm sure many others just automatically change the oil and filter on the Mana at 600 miles like so many other bikes that have a common oil bath with the tranny as that is what those other manufacturers call for.

Changing the oil and filter at 600 miles might really slow down the break in process or even disrupt it altogether under certain conditions.

Question. How many owners have had the oil changed at the 600 mile service and subsequently have had oil leak and or oil consumption problems.
How many have NOT changed the oil at that time and had this type of problem?

[shadyman]

I changed oil & filter at 600 mi. No leaks or problems before or after. Have always done this on everything I bought new. Nothing cleans fine metal particles & shavings out of an engine like an oil change. I also didn't baby it. Did lots of redlight shifts (without wife onboard) & no constant highway miles. I have 3000 mi. on it now & runs better than ever.

[mitchmike]

Oil changed at 6000, and as you may have read from post I had oil leaks from 300 miles new. I had the oil filter changed at 6000 as well, and that leaked really badly as well, I had to over torque to seal the filter. I am waiting for the warranty claim to go through for a replacement water pump, im hoping this will resolve the issue ,as the water pump seals have not bedded after 6000 miles.

[jsherm01]

I changed the oil and filter at 100 miles. At 4,000 miles now with no problems.

[rgeek]

I also changed my oil at about 600 miles. It's just something I have always done. No leaks or issues at all on mine. I must say though, it was the cleanest looking oil I have ever dumped out of a crankcase!

[SilverFoxUno]

I changed the oil at 6K+ miles and I have not had any oil leaks. I'm now at 9K+.

[chrisrappl]

I had the oil and filter changed @ 600 miles. The waterpump seal has been seeping from the day I picked up the bike new at the dealer and is still leaking to this day. I too have wondered about the wisdom of synthetic oil fill from the factory. I have always been advised not to run synthetic until after 6,000 miles. I understand that the Euro spec bikes come with dino from the factory. Don't know if it's true, but based upon info in the different owner's manuals, different oils are spec'd.

[Jim web]

I had mine changed at the dealer at 600 miles no oil leaks at 1,500 miles. I just hope it keep's it up, all the problems people are having with leaks and stalling.

[Motopsycho]

Great answers and the theory seems to be hooey but we will see what else comes in. It's good to have a central forum for the people that actually own these bikes. How about smoking or oil consumption ? that appears in a few posts as well.

[pete roper]

Smoking and oil consumption? Almost certainly down to poor break in and glazed bores. With an engine like the Mana's with Nicasil bores and plain bearings break in is not particularly relevant, in fact being too gentle is worse than riding the piss out of it. Also a complete no-no, (Although this isn't as bad with a water cooled motor.) is using an FM (Friction Modified) oil. While it is instant death for an air cooled motor and the bores will almost certainly glaze regardless of what they and the rings are made of anything with Nicasil bores will be a LOT more likely to glaze the bores with an FM oil.

No, not starting an oil thread. Any decent oil that meets the specs is fine, just make sure it doesn't have an FM suffix on the bottle.

Pete

[mah]

I had my oil + filter changed at 1200km and no oil leak, no smoke, no burning oil ths far "knocking on wood". My dealer recommended (Agip 4T Racing SAE 10W-60) full sythetic oil at 5000km and not before. The mechanic at my dealer told me he use this oil to stop oil leak on a HOG.

[alfamoi]

Oil changed at 1000km. I have now 12000km and no problem...

[JodyH]

My dealer recommended (Agip 4T Racing SAE 10W-60)
Aprilia recommends 5w-40, 10w-60 is way too heavy of an oil.
Too heavy is as bad or worse than too light of an oil, you'll starve the bearings on startup especially when winter temperatures come around.

I changed my oil at 600 miles, used Mobil 1 5w-40 "Turbo Diesel" full synthetic.
No leaks (other than the poor sealing surface for the oil filter, which I fixed with some sanding and tightening the filter more), no burning oil, runs great.

[pete roper]

Aprilia recommends 5w-40, 10w-60 is way too heavy of an oil.


erm. the W stands for 'winter'. A 10/60 has the pour rate of a 10wt when 'cold'. there is no danger to bearings with this oil unless perhaps you are starting it in -20*C conditions! My bikes regularly get started when the morning temp is -5 to -8*C, (We know when it gets to -8 because our pipes freeze! It's not all sunshine and beaches in Oz!!:happy:) if any damage was going to occur it would of done by now.

Being a dry sump design the delivery path from tank to bearings is very short and uncomplicated. I can see no risk to anything unless you thrash it from the get-go and only a cretin does that.

pete

[JodyH]

erm. the W stands for 'winter'. A 10/60 has the pour rate of a 10wt when 'cold'. there is no danger to bearings with this oil
5w-40
10w-60
Bearing clearances, the oil pump and oil passage ways are designed for 40 weight oil, not 60 weight.
Moving 60 weight takes more pressure or larger passages to move the same amount of oil.
Bearings are designed with certain tolerances specific to the oil being used, 60 weight oil will not lubricate bearing surfaces designed for 40 weight at the optimal level.
The oil pump is designed to move "x" amount of gallons per minute of 40 weight, it will not move as much 60 weight oil unless their is an increase in pressure.
Aprilia recommended oil is 5w-40, 10w-60 is too heavy and can cause bearing issues, especially at start-up.

[pete roper]

Possibly if you were to thrash it from the get-go in really cold weather but who does that?

The purpose of having oil in there is twofold. Firstly it has to be able to lubricate which means to keep apart the two surfaces of the bearing and journal. to do this it has to be able to form a hydro-dynamic wedge between the two, that is the primary function of the bearing clearance. Secondly it has to cool. To do this there has to be a certain throughput of oil which again relies on there being a clearance of sufficient size.

Plain bearings are a juggling act. The smaller the clearance the greater and more effective the wedge. Unfortunately if it is too small there is insufficient throughput to cool and the bearings will melt. Make the clearance too large and the oil film is incapable of forming a wedge and you'll end up with boundary lubrication due to oil film breakdown.

If you are building a dull-as-ditchwater commuter engine that is unlikely ever to be thrashed hard you spec bearing clearances towards the lower end of tollerance. On a race engine you go wider to help cooling and may up the oil pressure slightly by modifying the OPRV to compensate for the lower delivery pressure and hence lower pressure in the wedge.

'Standard', 'Textbook' clearances when I was training were estimated to be one to one and a half thou of clearance for ever inch of journal diameter.

The OPRV will release over-pressure back to the tank while still ensuring a plentiful supply of oil to the bearings. The 10W cold flow rate will ensure perfectly adequate supply, even when cold, to a motor like the Mana's top and bottom ends. The galleries are very short and bleed back is not a huge problem as it might be on something like a Landcruiser with a forward mounted pump and filter and galleries a yard and a half long.

there is a MUCH higher risk of bearing damage from not replacing the o-ring on the drain plug and risking bleed-back to the sump emptying the tank than there is from using a base 10W oil, especially a top of the range synthetic.

Pete

[shadyman]

I'll stick with my 5w40. Why would you wan't to use anything other than what a manufacturer recommends? I can see why you would use a 10w60 in a hog, to slow oil consumption & leaks. Also a thinner oil will enhance fuel mileage. Gone are the days of 20w50, STP, Motor Honey & such. In the 50's if your car went 100k., you did well. Today with modern machining & oils 300k. is common place. Will 10w60 hurt the Mana? Probably not, but why chance it. My carb. bikes fire up & immediately rev to 5k. when choked. I definatley want the oil to be flowing. FWIW I have a friend that races a Ninja 636. Last race he changed to 15w40 Rotella & 3rd lap out spun a rod bearing.

[JodyH]

I'll stick with my 5w40. Why would you wan't to use anything other than what a manufacturer recommends?
Exactly.
Aprilia specs 5w-40 for a reason.

[JodyH]

The 10W cold flow rate will ensure perfectly adequate supply, even when cold,
And once the oil is at operating temperature it's a 60 weight which is a much higher viscosity than the Aprilia recommended 40 weight.
As to whether this can cause problems... I'll defer to the engineers that designed the engine and who spec'd 40 weight oil as the recommended viscosity.

[pete roper]

And once the oil is at operating temperature it's a 60 weight which is a much higher viscosity than the Aprilia recommended 40 weight.
As to whether this can cause problems... I'll defer to the engineers that designed the engine and who spec'd 40 weight oil as the recommended viscosity.

That's fine, I'm not saying that a 10/60 is superior. Just that it will work just fine. It's what I use in everything else *modern* I own and it is perfectly satisfactory for the Mana. Oil always causes arguments, especially if people don't understand what its functions are and how it works. It's not my desire to start arguments.

pete

PS, actualll thinking about it the Penrite Sin 10 I use in my machines is a 10/70 so they should all be about ready for the scrapper now!:bump:

[Thor_R]

A 10W/60 oil is probably the worst choice you can make and a dealer who recommends honey like that does not know what he is talking about.

Here are some figures on viscosity. Keep in mind that most modern engines are happiest with an oil viscosity of 10 to 15cSt (centistrokes). Some make do with less. Also keep in mind that most engine wear occurs at start-up and before the engine reaches proper operating temperature (oil temperature about 100 degC / 212 degF)

Temperature: 0 degC / 40 degC / 100 degC
0W-30: 540cSt / 68cSt / 12cSt
5W-40: 874cSt / 91cSt / 14cSt
10W-60: 1553cSt / 165cSt / 24cSt

As you can see from the above figures a 10W-60 oil will not be a good choice unless you intend to run your engine at unusually high temperatures most of the time (it will reach 15cSt at 119 degC and 10cSt at 142 deg). So if your typical driving pattern is something like full throttle all day long in a very hot climate then perhaps ok. For all others I recommend the factory specified viscosity or an even thinner oil when it is cold and/or you are mostly doing shorter runs so the engine is not driven warm most of the time. A thinner oil will also give you lower fuel consumption and more power.

[jaldridge]

The 600 mile service will cost me 227 USD, and as I read it, it involves no parts or fluids, so for the money that's about two and a half hours of shop time (shop said it would take "less than 2 hours").

If really useful stuff is done, I'm okay with it, but I am fairly mechanical and can make the external inspections myself. Is there really 2 hours of labor here? Do things really need to be tightened up or adjusted that much? Two hours is a long time.

Thanks for your opinions.

[SapperPest19]

My only question about the initial few services would be out of concern for the warranty. I don't know how customer friendly Aprilia is with their warranty work but I would speculate that having an Aprilia certified mechanic perform the work would help ensure that Aprilia would honor their warranty if something happened later in the warranty period. Just my 2 cents. But some more experienced Aprilia owners might be able to offer a better opinion on this.

[jaldridge]

Yes, I had thought about the warranty issue, and I also don't know how picky Aprilia is about such things. In general, I would guess they would need to be able to say that a non-covered issue was related to undone required services. After all, there is no requirement to have Aprilia-authorized people do any of the routine work, though the wording of the warranty is strongly suggestive.

As there is a 2-year warranty on the bike, perhaps it would be good to get the imprimatur of an approved Aprilia shop on the maintenance work during that period.

I would appreciate any other input anyone might have. I have had the bike for just over two weeks, and 600 miles is right around the corner! What a lovely machine. When I want to shift, I take out the Ducati, but being shiftless is becoming ever more attractive!

Thanks, y'all. This is a great forum. And thanks to AF1 for hosting - I need to get down to Austin to visit the new place.

[SilverFoxUno]

Some of us have passed the warranty time. For me, I have accomplished all the maintenance myself, including the CVT belt replacement. I have about 21K miles on mine and have had no warranty issues. YMMV. I suspect my reliability is a direct result of retaining the evap canister...yup, I do...:)

[MJFDAF]

Thanks to all who have posted on the first oil change subject. I'm nearly there and the info has been making me think about going for it versus waiting.

My dealer pointed out that Aprilia Mana does not need the oil change at 601 but "recommended" it anyway.

So is the bottom line here -- that its safer to do change at 601 than not? I thought I recall someone writing that it could hurt if done early. Any thoughts anyone?

Many Thanks!