Aprilia, you are a joke!!!

[revdecal]

My bike is being prepped by my dealer today and they are fitting a stainless Akra full system with carbon can.

They have moved onto mapping it and guess what......Aprilia are monopolising the market! Turns out that you have to buy the full titanium system from them in order to receive a passcode to change the mapping.
If you buy or attempt to fit any other system (even if you buy a titanium one from elsewhere) they will not release the code allowing you to play with the ecu!!!!!!!!!
Even if you did buy it from them, it would still take a minimum of 5 working days for a code to be released by Aprilia!

Surely this cant be right? I have never heard of anything before in my life!

Are there ways around it?

Now they have to re-fit the standard system so i can collect tomorrow!

[Devildog]

Wow, that's messed up

Don't ya miss back when tuning consisted of a few tools and a box full of jets and needles?

[amauri]

I hate to say I told you so, but I've been saying all along that this bike is not going to be the same as all others in the past.
Aprilia is just trying to make sure people don't screw with the bike and install components that have not been tested optimized for it.

Remember the older gen RSVR that came with an EPROM when you bought the Aprilia exhaust? That EPROM was not available separately.

They spent the $$ in R&D to develop maps and accessories, now they just want to get paid for it.
Eventually, someone will come up with a hack for it, just like with the EPROMs on the old bikes.

BTW, if you think this is bad, look at how some of the Automobile manufactures are doing it.
When the door window switch went out on my 2002 Volvo, just replacing it was not enough.
Before it would function, I had to go to the dealer and pay to have the car connected to the Volvo VADIS network so the new switch could be activated via software from the factory.

Aprilia is not the only one playing this game.

[revdecal]

But that effectively means that all other sundry dealers like Performance parts where i got mine from are selling items which are worthless.

I'm not too sure Akrapovic are going to be happy to find out that all the systems that they have sold to dealers outside of the network will be returned as they are as about much use as a pot plant!

Thing is that i do not want the titanium system anyway for many reasons, one being that they have a tendency to 'blow' after a short period of time.

I'm sure a solution will produce itself, i cannot imagine that logically Akrapovic will seel system that cannot be installed?

[amauri]

Ducati has been doing this with Termignoni for years.

[benya]

I hate to say I told you so, but I've been saying all along that this bike is not going to be the same as all others in the past.
Aprilia is just trying to make sure people don't screw with the bike and install components that have not been tested optimized for it.

Give me a break, they just want to screw the consumer, be real.

Tested and optimized? Like optimize their bank account!

The Akra exhaust was developed and optimized for the RSV4, but Aprilia wants to be the only one who can sell it!!! :lame:

[hank]

I would say that the various governmental regulators have just as much to do with it as the OEM...

Nissan's Skyline has a speed limiter on all cars sold in Japan that can only be disabled when the cars GPS system recognizes that the vehicle is at a registered race track.

I can readily see the day where Big Brother controls (and monitors) vehicles, how they are driven and what modifications have been done to them. If an OEM wants to sell vehicles, they must comply with the people running the show.

Wait until you see what GM has in store for us when it comes to vehicle choices over the next 10~20 years.... :p:

[cheekythomas]

Its sure true... model specific codes as mentioned in the dealer notice...

http://www.serviceaprilia.com/public/com_tech_/comuAprilia/Common/en/013-2009.pdf

[revdecal]

Again though as mentioned previously, i'm sure Akrapovic (who are their approved supplier) are going to be pissed that all the systems sold and sent out through their standard suppliers, external from Aprilia, have a unit that cannot be used.
Aprilia will only release the code if it has an Aprilia order number for the exhaust.
That means that all the stainless sytems which Akrapovic have built are basically crap as Aprilia will only sell you the titanium :rolleyes:

Im sure it will sort itself out in the end

[Diablo1]

So, if the dealer gets the password from Aprilia, can he re-use it more than once to program the ECU on many customers' bikes?

[Beau1K]

They just want to make sure some weekend warrior performance chop shop doesn't fuck up their new motor and give it a bad rep and then stick them with a warrantee claim! They don't want the early SXV/RXV headaches all over again with this new race machine they are releasing to the public.

[amauri]

So, if the dealer gets the password from Aprilia, can he re-use it more than once to program the ECU on many customers' bikes?

No, read the bulletin posted by cheeky

[mrgrn]

Give me a break, they just want to screw the consumer, be real.

Tested and optimized? Like optimize their bank account!

The Akra exhaust was developed and optimized for the RSV4, but Aprilia wants to be the only one who can sell it!!! :lame:


bingo, we have a winner

fukk the consumer to make sure you have to buy their overprised slov system for $3000:lame:

On that alone i would not buy akra, just out of principal

a good ECU wizz will have a solution for that soon so hold you horses a while mate and be patient

[mrgrn]

Again though as mentioned previously, i'm sure Akrapovic (who are their approved supplier) are going to be pissed that all the systems sold and sent out through their standard suppliers, external from Aprilia, have a unit that cannot be used.
Aprilia will only release the code if it has an Aprilia order number for the exhaust.
That means that all the stainless sytems which Akrapovic have built are basically crap as Aprilia will only sell you the titanium :rolleyes:

Im sure it will sort itself out in the end

they are not!!!!!!!!

Aprilia knows the rich and impatient will HAVE to buy the ti and then will bend you over. they also know the SS and a long term solution will be a week or thrree away and those systems will make them some money now and more down the road

there will be a bypass of that code shortly as akra is not stupid and they know that code will be short lived, bet you money on it

[mrgrn]

They just want to make sure some weekend warrior performance chop shop doesn't fuck up their new motor and give it a bad rep and then stick them with a warrantee claim! They don't want the early SXV/RXV headaches all over again with this new race machine they are releasing to the public.

changing the fueling will not hurt the motors if it is built worth a crap

[mrgrn]

Again though as mentioned previously, i'm sure Akrapovic (who are their approved supplier) are going to be pissed that all the systems sold and sent out through their standard suppliers, external from Aprilia, have a unit that cannot be used.
Aprilia will only release the code if it has an Aprilia order number for the exhaust.
That means that all the stainless sytems which Akrapovic have built are basically crap as Aprilia will only sell you the titanium :rolleyes:

Im sure it will sort itself out in the end


can i buy your stainless akra then, 2 day it too me

[shakazulu12]

While its incredibly annoying and likely ruined your day (or month), as Power commanders and even Aprilia's own racing ECU become available, this issue will not exist any longer. Ducati does the same thing with the Termi racing exhausts. The bike is just too new to have any other aftermarket support.

Annoying for all of the early owners, those of us in the USA will likely see the bike come when piggyback ECU's and Aprilia's racing ECU are released already and won't have this issue.

[hank]

While its incredibly annoying and likely ruined your day (or month), as Power commanders and even Aprilia's own racing ECU become available, this issue will not exist any longer. Ducati does the same thing with the Termi racing exhausts. The bike is just too new to have any other aftermarket support.

Annoying for all of the early owners, those of us in the USA will likely see the bike come when piggyback ECU's and Aprilia's racing ECU are released already and won't have this issue.

I would be duly impressed if PC is able to build a unit that would work on the RSV4... even more so if it actually improves anything...

[hank]

can i buy your stainless akra then, 2 day it too me

Mark - that would be quite expensive to DHL from London... :eek:

[shakazulu12]

I would be duly impressed if PC is able to build a unit that would work on the RSV4... even more so if it actually improves anything...


Their site says they are working on a PCV for it now

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommander_v.aspx?mk=1&mdl=240&yr=2009

We still don't know many details on the Aprilia racing ECU either.

[amauri]

I would be duly impressed if PC is able to build a unit that would work on the RSV4... even more so if it actually improves anything...


I agree.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[shakazulu12]

I'm new to Aprilias, have previous Powercommanders not worked well with Aprilias? Or is it more a concern of how much more sophisticated the electronics on the RSV4 are rumored to be?

[hank]

I'm new to Aprilias, have previous Powercommanders not worked well with Aprilias? Or is it more a concern of how much more sophisticated the electronics on the RSV4 are rumored to be?

I would readily say it's the latter...

[amauri]

The current Power Commander-3 is actually a very simple device.

All it is doing is allowing the user to add/subtract fuel to the injectors by monitoring the throttle position at the TPS and RPMs (via injector pulses).

What complicates things on the RSVR is that you now have two separate pairs of throttle bodies, each with their own TPS and also another TPS at the RH handlebar or throttle grip.

Those two throttle bodies open/close independently of each other.
The ECU controls not only the opening angle but also the timing of when and how quickly each of the two pairs open.
The ECU monitors not only how far the rider twists the throttle but also how quickly the rider opens it.

Of course, the ECU is also monitoring many other conditions like temperatures, pressures (atmospheric & manifold) wheel speed, gearbox, etc.

In any case, I’m sure they can program that kind of intelligence into a PC-5, but it will not be cheap and may take some time before it is ready.

Remember how Dyno Jet advertised a Ignition module for the RSVR some four years ago? They never delivered.

[mrgrn]

Mark - that would be quite expensive to DHL from London... :eek:

$150 tops Hank

[mrgrn]

I would readily say it's the latter...

PC makes a unit that that allow the Ducati V4 guys to independently alter each cylinder now so i doubt the RSV4 is any huge task

[amauri]

PC makes a unit that that allow the Ducati V4 guys to independently alter each cylinder now so i doubt the RSV4 is any huge task

The current PC-3USB already allows indpendent fuel adjustment of each cylinder.
Myself and every other DJ tuner out there have already been using that function since the PC-3 came out 4+ years ago. Even on the RSVR.
All you have to do is set the PC-3 into "Advanced Mode" using the software toolbar.

The challenge for DJ is going to be how the PC-5 will handle the constatly changing throttle openings for any given RPM and engine load on the RSV4 ride-by-wire system.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/PowerCommander/powercommander_iii_usb.aspx

What Power Commander III USB Offers
Features
Hassle free USB communication - The Power Commander USB will instantly and automatically connect to the Power Commander Control Center software once it is installed. Simply "power up" the unit and connect the supplied USB cable to the computer and PCIII USB.
Onboard notes storage - The PCIII USB stores the notes from the map in the onboard memory. This makes it easy to see exactly which map is loaded. The notes, just as the map itself, are automatically retrieved upon connecting to the unit.
Individual cylinder adjustment - All PCIII USB units have a "cylinder trim" adjustment feature that allows you to "offset" fuel to one or more cylinders. Additionally, for advanced users, the PCIII USB allows individual cylinder mapping. Now each cylinder can be mapped individually throughout the entire rpm/throttle

[mrgrn]

The current PC-3USB already allows indpendent fuel adjustment of each cylinder.
Myself and every other DJ tuner out there have already been using that function since the PC-3 came out 4+ years ago. Even on the RSVR.
All you have to do is set the PC-3 into "Advanced Mode" using the software toolbar.

The challenge for DJ is going to be how the PC-5 will handle the constatly changing throttle openings for any given RPM and engine load on the RSV4 ride-by-wire system.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/PowerCommander/powercommander_iii_usb.aspx

What Power Commander III USB Offers
Features
Hassle free USB communication - The Power Commander USB will instantly and automatically connect to the Power Commander Control Center software once it is installed. Simply "power up" the unit and connect the supplied USB cable to the computer and PCIII USB.
Onboard notes storage - The PCIII USB stores the notes from the map in the onboard memory. This makes it easy to see exactly which map is loaded. The notes, just as the map itself, are automatically retrieved upon connecting to the unit.
Individual cylinder adjustment - All PCIII USB units have a "cylinder trim" adjustment feature that allows you to "offset" fuel to one or more cylinders. Additionally, for advanced users, the PCIII USB allows individual cylinder mapping. Now each cylinder can be mapped individually throughout the entire rpm/throttle


how are they using it on the R1 and the fly by on the r6??

how are they doing it on the $72,000 V4 ducati?

[amauri]

how are they using it on the R1 and the fly by on the r6??

how are they doing it on the $72,000 V4 ducati?

The 72k D16-V4 is like any other, a set of cables going to a TB and all 4 open together. No ride-by-wire at all, still requires mechanical synchronization with vacuum gauges.

The current R1 & R6 are only a partial ride-by-wire.
They use throttle cables to control up to 40% throttle opening.
From 41% to wide open, the ECU controls it. (but not individually like the RSV4)

A PC3 is not a problem for those bikes at all, I’ve worked on quite a few.

FYI, the RSV4 does require mechanical/vacuum synchronization of the TBs but only in pairs
I mean that you have to synch the LH & RH Rear together, and then the LH & RH Front together. But the ECU does the final synchronization of the Front to Rear pair using the two MAP sensors and throttle servos.

[mrgrn]

The 72k D16-V4 is like any other, a set of cables going to a TB and all 4 open together. No ride-by-wire at all, still requires mechanical synchronization with vacuum gauges.

The current R1 & R6 are only a partial ride-by-wire.
They use throttle cables to control up to 40% throttle opening.
From 41% to wide open, the ECU controls it. (but not individually like the RSV4)

A PC3 is not a problem for those bikes at all, I’ve worked on quite a few.

FYI, the RSV4 does require mechanical/vacuum synchronization of the TBs but only in pairs
I mean that you have to synch the LH & RH Rear together, and then the LH & RH Front together. But the ECU does the final synchronization of the Front to Rear pair using the two MAP sensors and throttle servos.

and this final sync can't be done with a PC?

what about a new ECU and PC?

HRC has their own race ECU's and people use them on Honda's of course and there is always motec

I am sure thorsten will have something to say about this bike soon

thanks for the info though

[amauri]

and this final sync can't be done with a PC?

what about a new ECU and PC?


I think we're talking of two different types of synchronization.

What I'm referring to is the way that on a normal cable operated throttle body, you have to synch all the cylinder’s throttle valves to open together and open the same amount, so as to maintain a balance of air entering all cylinders.

The RSVR does this final balancing electronically, based on sensor values monitored by the ECU.

With a race ECU, there is no need for a Power Commander.

[mrgrn]

I think we're talking of two different types of synchronization.

What I'm referring to is the way that on a normal cable operated throttle body, you have to synch all the cylinder’s throttle valves to open together and open the same amount, so as to maintain a balance of air entering all cylinders.

The RSVR does this final balancing electronically, based on sensor values monitored by the ECU.

With a race ECU, there is no need for a Power Commander.

then the race ECU elims the code:rolleyes: that was my point

[coleman1]

Give me a break, they just want to screw the consumer, be real.

Tested and optimized? Like optimize their bank account!

The Akra exhaust was developed and optimized for the RSV4, but Aprilia wants to be the only one who can sell it!!! :lame:

I agree it is lame. It's probably a good thing it's being posted here to educate a lot of potential RSV4 buyers.

But....I don't think you're looking at the whole picture. When a business produces an item to sale, they do what is called a break even analysis. This is to determine at what point the product being sold will actually start turning a profit. They take into account all overhead costs (development, administrative, production, ect) and then calculate profit on each item sold. Together this determines the amount of time it is before the company recovers it's it's research and development costs and begins making a profit. (that's one reason why some name brand perscription drugs are so expensive and the generic ones ar not. The name brand has to recover the research and development cost, while the generic just copies what the name brand producers made) This is usually months to sometimes a year or two down the road....depending on what type of product it is. So Aprilia probably sees an opportunity for some additional revenue. (which sometimes will result in a reduction of cost for other products)

I'm sure Aprilia and Akropovic have some sort of financial agreement that obviously makes the full Ti system a better financial sale for Aprilia, so they make sure things work in thier favor. To say they are "screwing the consumer" isn't really accurate, I think, because they do not force this cost on you, (you decide whether you want to spend the money on it or not) that it is just a business decision and part of owning one of the first RSV4's. Wait a year and things will be A LOT different because the consumer will demand a cheaper alternative and a business will recognize an opportunity to make some money. Then others will complain that the consumer is screwing Aprilia.

[rx7tt95]

I'm willing to bet there will be some sort of solution for this in the not too distant future. Akrapovic wouldn't be listing a stainless full system, a race slip-on, a "legal" slip-on with at catalytic converter and the full Ti system if you could only get the "code" for the full Ti system. There'd be absolutely no reason for them to manufacture any other system.

[Rich22]

The bike comes with the maps pre installed in the ecu all you need is the activation code from Aprilia to choose the map you want/need for the system. The reason they only release the map with the full titanium Akra is because that is what it has been designed to work with. They don't want the map used with any old pipe full or slip-on as it could damage engine parts and affect reliability, even the difference between titanium and stainless can have a slight affect.

That's what I've been told anyway!

[mrgrn]

The bike comes with the maps pre installed in the ecu all you need is the activation code from Aprilia to choose the map you want/need for the system. The reason they only release the map with the full titanium Akra is because that is what it has been designed to work with. They don't want the map used with any old pipe full or slip-on as it could damage engine parts and affect reliability, even the difference between titanium and stainless can have a slight affect.

That's what I've been told anyway!

you have been lied too:bs:

most modern bikes are rich, i mean rich from the factory and a simple swap of stainless to ti will not alter fueling at all

if worse comes to worse run the SS full and leave the OEM map for now as the little lean it makes the mixture will prolly still leave the OEM map rich

[007]

so i read that some post on here that the Ti system tends to bust.. is that true???

[revdecal]

A rep from Akrapovic told me that Titanium system are really only designed for pure race teams where that extra pound or 2 weight difference is going to make a difference with a budget to replace them.
They can be prone to blowing at the headers after a relatively short time, the reps actual words were 'unless you are a race team, buy the stainless....it is bullet proof and the performance figures are exactly the same'.

[v4fac]

My understanding from the Akra website is that all there systems are designed and tested and the graph on there website is fitted to a standard bike.
Hence this graph would be the same with no extra maps.

The extra mapping would probably give you a little extra and improve the fueling slightly.

What is probably a bigger issue is that Aprilia will invalidate your warranty for fitting a non approved part even thou its the same...

[revdecal]

please see reply from Performance Parts.

Hello Ryan,

Okay, no panic here, we've encountered this kind of issue in the past with various makes.

I'll contact Akrapovic, but firstly I need to make a very clear point.

Akrapovic design ALL of their aftermarket products to run on standard air and fuel ratios, the dyno graphs you see on their website for all makes including the RSV-4 are measured under these STANDARD settings, this is to demonstrate the effectiveness of the exhaust in it's own right without clouding the improvements with things such as air filter and fuelling changes. [see the FAQ's on the Akrapovic site where they address this issue]

Therefore the system you have even on standard settings is far from worthless in terms of power increase. A 5 bhp increase at peak and a massive torque boost are all delivered on standard air/fuel ratios.

The new fuel map that Aprilia are holding will REFINE things and may improve SLIGHTLY the to end increase and some increases at various throttle positions but be clear on this, the majority of the improvements already come from the exhaust. horror stories form manufacturers regarding blown engines etc if not fuelled are simply not true, they are designed purely as a control mechanism to stop people going outside of their commercial loop.

Akrapovic may be able to help with a map and I'm sure if they have one they will supply it, but I would expect them to say, exactly as they have done for the past 19 years " we build the system to work on OE fuelling - it works perfectly well on those settings and we don't enter into fuelling modifications"

I'll come back to you as soon as I have an answer.

Thanks,

Colin

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I have very little doubt that the RSV4 will have a Power Commander 5 option as viable. I have adapted one to a shiver which similar in concept and used them on plenty of Yamaha's. Amuari, the cable might not quite open the blades to 40% on the 09 R1 at least? See my dyno video, I was holding the throttle wide open the whole time, same with the 2006 R6 dyno video.

Link: R6, 2006. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWziXncApM

Link: R1, 2009. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa3bw3IoKZA

On the Shiver I simply tapped into the rear throttle body TPS to get the actual throttle blade opening reading and started tuning from there. The shiver also has three TPS units but tuning can only really be accomplished by looking at the true throttle blade position. Now it is true that the ecu is always messing with the trim on the blade position but when tuning in steady state on the eddy brake dyno you can get it to settle in a position for tuning. If the front and rear blade positions are slightly different (and the difference must be slight or the engine would run horribly) then this is really not a big deal. Hell, running two PCV units might be an option to control the 8 injectors with precision if money is not really an object.

The PCV has speedo tapping, determines gear position whne speedo signal is tapped and calibrated, can do gear dependent mapping if desired, can run in closed loop feedback mode with a proper wideband o2 sensor in the system.

I think any real fears that the new V4 will be "untuneable" are unfounded. it might not have a lot of options right out of the box but the options will appear over time as the bike looks like it is going to be success commercially.

If only Bazzaz was making a unit...mmmm, they are so nice to use and so nice to tune, and have TC built right in that you can dial in or out depending on what you like.

Fear not guys, the full potential of the V4 will be unleashed over time. In 1999 when the RSV first came to the states there were similar issues with tuning and parts, but over time the power came and tuning was accomplished and the variety of parts blossomed.

[mrgrn]

I have very little doubt that the RSV4 will have a Power Commander 5 option as viable. I have adapted one to a shiver which similar in concept and used them on plenty of Yamaha's. Amuari, the cable might not quite open the blades to 40% on the 09 R1 at least? See my dyno video, I was holding the throttle wide open the whole time, same with the 2006 R6 dyno video.

Link: R6, 2006. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWziXncApM

Link: R1, 2009. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa3bw3IoKZA

On the Shiver I simply tapped into the rear throttle body TPS to get the actual throttle blade opening reading and started tuning from there. The shiver also has three TPS units but tuning can only really be accomplished by looking at the true throttle blade position. Now it is true that the ecu is always messing with the trim on the blade position but when tuning in steady state on the eddy brake dyno you can get it to settle in a position for tuning. If the front and rear blade positions are slightly different (and the difference must be slight or the engine would run horribly) then this is really not a big deal. Hell, running two PCV units might be an option to control the 8 injectors with precision if money is not really an object.

The PCV has speedo tapping, determines gear position whne speedo signal is tapped and calibrated, can do gear dependent mapping if desired, can run in closed loop feedback mode with a proper wideband o2 sensor in the system.

I think any real fears that the new V4 will be "untuneable" are unfounded. it might not have a lot of options right out of the box but the options will appear over time as the bike looks like it is going to be success commercially.

If only Bazzaz was making a unit...mmmm, they are so nice to use and so nice to tune, and have TC built right in that you can dial in or out depending on what you like.

Fear not guys, the full potential of the V4 will be unleashed over time. In 1999 when the RSV first came to the states there were similar issues with tuning and parts, but over time the power came and tuning was accomplished and the variety of parts blossomed.



Thank God Micah!

i was wondering when downright panic was going to dilute the bike and aftermarket pipe world with this thread

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

If it sucks in air, mixes it with fuel, burns it and makes power it can and will be tuned. Hell I have seen running Bimota V-Dues, even ridden one, anything is possible?

[mrgrn]

so when is somebody sending me their OEM full headers so i can make a full exhaust for it with custom muffler and so AF1 can test it and beat on it?

[Simcard]

I spoke with the distributors of Aprilia here and they basically agreed that unless you buy the Akra Evo system, you won't get a code. This is what they said:

"the factory only supplies the unlock code after checking proof of purchase. This is to prevent theft of the maps. However, all is not lost. Leo Vinci build full systems and slip ons for the RSV4 which do NOT require any adjustment of the stock settings"

Theft of the maps...??!!

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

I write my own maps all the time, no worries. Unless their map is infinitely better than for instance the EVO6 Akro/Aprilia mapping, then I can do just fine and so can you guys!

[Waxerdog]

Just like all the other new models Aprilia has produced, once it hits the states and gets into the hands of the true "Bike Gods" here we will see all kinds of mods and fixes roll in!

I might even have to take mine to Texas to get it dialed in if Amauri is too busy! :worship:

[Gman2005]

Well you'll only need the code if you are going to change the throttle body size right? There must be a reason for it lads.

[amauri]

Well you'll only need the code if you are going to change the throttle body size right? There must be a reason for it lads.

????

where did that come from?

[007]

Well you'll only need the code if you are going to change the throttle body size right? There must be a reason for it lads.

:funnypost:bs: u got me on that one

[Gman2005]

isn't the inlets on the throttle bodies adjustable. Something on them lines anyway?

[Dissident]

Is there any brand that's not doing this sort of thing? I hear plenty of similar stuff from the Duc camp...

I mean, here you have the option to pay for a code and get a map that works with the exhaust instead of having to get a power commander and pay someone for custom tuning... Can't blame them for trying to make some money (isn't that the point of owning a business?)

[amauri]

isn't the inlets on the throttle bodies adjustable. Something on them lines anyway?

They are not "user" adjustable as far as size or position.

The ECU determines when he wants then velocity stacks in the tall or short positions.

[spoonz]

Is there any brand that's not doing this sort of thing? I hear plenty of similar stuff from the Duc camp...

I mean, here you have the option to pay for a code and get a map that works with the exhaust instead of having to get a power commander and pay someone for custom tuning... Can't blame them for trying to make some money (isn't that the point of owning a business?)

No passwords on a Duc ecu ?

If you buy termi's etc you can get the custom ecu to go with it but you can also reflash the original if you have someone to do it for you. (various companies on the net)

The reason many like the DP ecu is it holds the exhaust valve open all the time and makes the low down fueling much better over the stock setup

Stock ecu works fine with race cans also but if you PC3 you cannot alter the fueling below 3k unless it's reflashed (emissions) and valve closes at low throttle.

I'm sure the Aprilia situation will end up the same. You either get the official race setup or some clever bods will reflash it for you to suit whatever you bolt on. It's early days.

[Dissident]

No passwords on a Duc ecu ?

If you buy termi's etc you can get the custom ecu to go with it but you can also reflash the original if you have someone to do it for you. (various companies on the net)

The reason many like the DP ecu is it holds the exhaust valve open all the time and makes the low down fueling much better over the stock setup

Stock ecu works fine with race cans also but if you PC3 you cannot alter the fueling below 3k unless it's reflashed (emissions) and valve closes at low throttle.

I'm sure the Aprilia situation will end up the same. You either get the official race setup or some clever bods will reflash it for you to suit whatever you bolt on. It's early days.

Yeah, so it's even easier because you don't have to buy a serperate chip. hopefully the code is cheaper, but...

I dunno, dif chip or password, still about the same to me

[spoonz]

Yeah, so it's even easier because you don't have to buy a serperate chip. hopefully the code is cheaper, but...

I dunno, dif chip or password, still about the same to me

No you can get the original reflashed but ducati themselves will only sell you a pre flashed ecu either oem or 2 states of tune.

Give it time and the Aprilia will be the same

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

On the Ducatis you can still use a PCIIIusb or PCV to tune the bike below the thresholds of closed loop (o2 sensor feedback operation) by adding an o2 sensor simulator or emulator tot he system....then the bike assumes no changes are required to be made by the onboard ecu and you can play away with the PCIII/PC5.

The Aprilia, like all other things that burn fuel and air will be quite similar.

[aprilia fans]

This is what Akrapovic say:

Please see explanation from our R&D and Aprilia regarding RSV4:

* Aprilia offers cost-free update of mapping when an exhaust is bought at Aprilia
* This mapping is fixed, one cannot adapt or change it
* New mapping does not allow three different settings anymore (rain, road, race), it is only working in mode race-max. performance
* The biggest difference is better fuel dosing between 7000-9000rpm, which influences smoother running of the engine with a bit lower response

The decision how to limit the access to the mapping was done in their sales and marketing department.

With this mapping they have not changed essentially power and torque. Based on our experiences change of mapping is not needed (as for example at Honda CB1000R). It is also a fixed one, so if customer would like to individualize it, power commander is in development phase. The others will probably follow..

[rx7tt95]

Way to step backwards in time, Aprilia. Push your marketing dept. off a cliff. They should never determine how a bike runs. Get some balls and tell them to stay out of the engineering dept.

[amauri]

Way to step backwards in time, Aprilia. Push your marketing dept. off a cliff. They should never determine how a bike runs. Get some balls and tell them to stay out of the engineering dept.

Someone joins here yesterday, doesn't disclose their identity or location, and you are ready to believe their every word and condemn Aprilia?

That's the power of the internet.

[rx7tt95]

And what exactly in his post do you see as not being factual? I don't see anything that isn't believable. Perhaps he can't divulge who he is. Ever think of that?

[amauri]

And what exactly in his post do you see as not being factual? I don't see anything that isn't believable. Perhaps he can't divulge who he is. Ever think of that?

Perhaps he can't divulge who he is because he works for the competition and just wants to stir things up. Ever think of that?

I don't know who said it.
But if he or she is going to make a statement, at least introduce themselves.

Though I don't know if that statement is true or false, it doesn't imply that Aprilia’s marketing dept is determining how the bike should run.

They just want to make money from every possible way.

You can buy their pipe and get the map included in the price, or you can by another pipe for less and spend additional money on a Dyno map and a add on tuning device.

[mrgrn]

Someone joins here yesterday, doesn't disclose their identity or location, and you are ready to believe their every word and condemn Aprilia?

That's the power of the internet.

in this case, yes!!!!!!!!!!!!

[amauri]

You’re all so gullible, no wonder the Nigerians are still sending out their offers.

[Sdave2002]

:funnypost:funnypost:funnypost:funnypost:funnypost

[ckruzel]

Don't be so cheap buy what's made and tested for the bike the r&d has been done for you as mentioned many aftermrket items cause service service lights driveability issues etc

[mrgrn]

Don't be so cheap buy what's made and tested for the bike the r&d has been done for you as mentioned many aftermrket items cause service service lights driveability issues etc

total sheep menatality

exhaust testing is hardly that damaging

the ONLY reason there are not more alternatives to akra right now is because there are no bikes here stateside.

they are using europe to test the bike first b4 they make any last minute changes to release to us

[hank]

they are using europe to test the bike first b4 they make any last minute changes to release to us

Actually, Aprilia has time and again NOT given the US market the latest developments... There are numerous threads on the subject dating back years...

Their largest market by far has been the EU where the brand is a household name - here in the US, the brand was virtually unheard of and it is still rather obscure to Americans, even among people who ride motorcycles... And that's not necessarily such a bad thing... :micah:

[mrgrn]

we are the largest motorcycle market on earth, don't make sense to speak exclusivity Hank, you sound like a Ducatista now J/K

[kostas]

we are the largest motorcycle market on earth, don't make sense to speak exclusivity hank, you sound like a ducatista now j/k

+1000

[hank]

we are the largest motorcycle market on earth,

True, but not for Aprilia...

How many Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki dealers are in your area and how many Aprilia dealers? Next time you are out and about, count the number of motorcycles and how many were Japanese vs. Aprilia...

Aprilia is still an obscure brand here in the US. It is gaining in popularity every year thanks to a very reliable product with very good overall quality... and mainly promoted by existing owners - but still obscure relative to the Japanese, HD and even Ducati which are all far more popular.

[zvez]

Actually, Aprilia has time and again NOT given the US market the latest developments... There are numerous threads on the subject dating back years...

Their largest market by far has been the EU where the brand is a household name - here in the US, the brand was virtually unheard of and it is still rather obscure to Americans, even among people who ride motorcycles... And that's not necessarily such a bad thing... :micah:


Only really a household name in EU because of it's long scooter history and to some extent it's success racing two strokes. Certainly not for it's liter bikes.

Chris

[rx7tt95]

We're not even close to being the largest motorcycle market. The top three are China, India and Indonesia. I'm willing to bet Vietnam is even higher than the U.S.

[mrgrn]

We're not even close to being the largest motorcycle market. The top three are China, India and Indonesia. I'm willing to bet Vietnam is even higher than the U.S.



OK, and yet none of them are on this forum or pro racing either:bs:

the point was leaving the US so far behind a release is not goodd for a HUGE market whether a smaller brand or not. China may lead the pack but i doubt Aprilia is sellinfg the V$4 out there while screwing us here:rolleyes:

[hank]

Only really a household name in EU because of it's long scooter history and to some extent it's success racing two strokes. Certainly not for it's liter bikes.

Chris

Obviously true since Aprilia only started making liter bikes in 1998... And not just scoots - many people's first actual motorcycles were Aprilia RS125's and many moved up to the RS250 as their licensing rules permitted larger capacity...

And while the liter sized Aprilias were readily accepted and purchased ROW, here in the US, we only started receiving them late in 1999 (hence the rebranding to call them the 2000 model). Very few were actually sold that first year, then again, the same can be said for the years 2000 (US 2000.5), 2001, 2002, 2003, etc.

Blame the original Aprilia USA (when it was based in GA BTW) for their lack of business acumen, Dealers (which again points back to Aprilia USA's business practices), the market, the competition (RC51/SP2, 996, TRL, etc.) but still, the Mille has never had significant sales here in the US.

I remember being in London during the period (1998/99) when the Mille was first introduced and seeing Mille's on a regular basis - which is why I was one of the first people to get one here.

Yes, sales have been climbing, but never in any significant number given by the relatively few seen on the road/track to this day.

[mrgrn]

True, but not for Aprilia...

How many Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki dealers are in your area and how many Aprilia dealers? Next time you are out and about, count the number of motorcycles and how many were Japanese vs. Aprilia...

Aprilia is still an obscure brand here in the US. It is gaining in popularity every year thanks to a very reliable product with very good overall quality... and mainly promoted by existing owners - but still obscure relative to the Japanese, HD and even Ducati which are all far more popular.

Hank,

I am guessing the V4 will be expected to sell more unit then say 2000 here stateside, agreed? I would not call 2000 units nothing and at say a $20,000 price tag the math is what??? 40 million seems significant too me to leave last

it is nice aprilia is obscure and private enough to exclude a measly 40 mill while the rest of the world struggles to make ends meet

[hank]

Hank,

I am guessing the V4 will be expected to sell more unit then say 2000 here stateside, agreed? I would not call 2000 units nothing and at say a $20,000 price tag the math is what??? 40 million seems significant too me to leave last

it is nice aprilia is obscure and private enough to exclude a measly 40 mill while the rest of the world struggles to make ends meet

2,000 RSV4's in the USA - over how many years?

It would be interesting to find out how many RSV/Mille's Aprilia has sold in the USA (by year) to date...

[mrgrn]

2,000 RSV4's in the USA - over how many years?

It would be interesting to find out how many RSV/Mille's Aprilia has sold in the USA (by year) to date...

OK, so 1000 in year one so 20 million, does not change anything really

you can speak aprilia down like some rare gem hank but there are 3 dealers in less then like 30 miles from here, maybe more

claiming the japanese sell more bikes or there are more dealers does not change the fact they are scewring themsleves on not releasing the supposed 3 V4's then USA bound LOL

they have made a HUGE mistake in wating so long and it will hurt their image and sales but luckily china will buy them extra units then LOL J/K

the RC51 released 1500 unit in the USA in 2000 and i had a deposit for 9 months and the V4 is a awesome ride i would doubt 1000 units would not have sold out by now to be honest Hank.

if every dealer had say 4 how many dealers are there here? i know of 5 people locally here who have deposit money ready in 10 minutes of me now times that by about 200

[rx7tt95]

I believe they're only making 1,500 the first year? Maybe just the Factory model? With two additional RSV4 models on the horizon, I'd think it'd be more. Also, Motorcyclist is reporting a release of the Tuono V4 later this year at the Paris show for 2010 model year.

Edit: We may be getting 2010 models in the states come fall. So the 1500 may be the 2009 model?

[mrgrn]

I believe they're only making 1,500 the first year? Maybe just the Factory model? With two additional RSV4 models on the horizon, I'd think it'd be more. Also, Motorcyclist is reporting a release of the Tuono V4 later this year at the Paris show for 2010 model year.

Edit: We may be getting 2010 models in the states come fall. So the 1500 may be the 2009 model?

OK, so 1500 units is a small market?

they did the same with the 08 twin too and i did not buy one because of it

you can't repeatedly not release a bike to a place like the USA a year late and call it a early next year model while we all watch the rest of the world(iceland LOL) get bikes when we only will buy 1500+ bikes

[mrgrn]

OK, just quick

NJ/NY/CT at least 17 dealers

TX has like 22

washinton st has 13

cali has 38

has to be like 200 dealers in the states and 4 each sold is not that hard to imagine

[hank]

OK, so 1000 in year one so 20 million, does not change anything really

you can speak aprilia down like some rare gem hank but there are 3 dealers in less then like 30 miles from here, maybe more

claiming the japanese sell more bikes or there are more dealers does not change the fact they are scewring themsleves on not releasing the supposed 3 V4's then USA bound LOL

they have made a HUGE mistake in wating so long and it will hurt their image and sales but luckily china will buy them extra units then LOL J/K

the RC51 released 1500 unit in the USA in 2000 and i had a deposit for 9 months and the V4 is a awesome ride i would doubt 1000 units would not have sold out by now to be honest Hank.

if every dealer had say 4 how many dealers are there here? i know of 5 people locally here who have deposit money ready in 10 minutes of me now times that by about 200

'Rare gem' was your descriptor, not mine... I only mentioned that it isn't widely known or hasn't sold in any significant numbers here in the US. IMO, reliability has actually decreased from the original 1999 bike as the engine has been worked to increase RWHP, frame lighter, etc. It still has a very high quality fit & finish when compared to most other bikes sold - of any brand...

There is no Aprilia mystique in the US because most people still aren't familiar enough with them to know what a solid bike they are - that's why the resale market sucked even well before the economy took a dive...

The brand does, however, have a good following among people who were familiar with the brand previously or bought one and made the realization (borrowing from a forum member's signature line) "why did it take me so long to buy this bike?". Or "Aprilia - the best bike you've never heard of".

I do agree however, that they make an excellent bike relative to their probable main US competitor in terms of Euro V twin sport bike... i.e., Ducati...

And never confuse people 'claiming 'they will buy v. actually buying... When it comes time to actually putting their money down, there are always excuses... :rolleyes:

[mrgrn]

'Rare gem' was your descriptor, not mine... I only mentioned that it isn't widely known or hasn't sold in any significant numbers here in the US. IMO, reliability has actually decreased from the original 1999 bike as the engine has been worked to increase RWHP, frame lighter, etc. It still has a very high quality fit & finish when compared to most other bikes sold - of any brand...

There is no Aprilia mystique in the US because most people still aren't familiar enough with them to know what a solid bike they are - that's why the resale market sucked even well before the economy took a dive...

The brand does, however, have a good following among people who were familiar with the brand previously or bought one and made the realization (borrowing from a forum member's signature line) "why did it take me so long to buy this bike?". Or "Aprilia - the best bike you've never heard of".

I do agree however, that they make an excellent bike relative to their probable main US competitor in terms of Euro V twin sport bike... i.e., Ducati...

And never confuse people 'claiming 'they will buy v. actually buying... When it comes time to actually putting their money down, there are always excuses... :rolleyes:

Hank, i think you are partially wrong

i have known of, and was looking to buy one in 2000 i just was not going to toss over $17,ooo back then. the bike name is far more popular then you think and we are now a decade later, not the same obscure name as you describe.

Most riders know the name and their positives but their price has kept them small not thier lack of popularity.

[rx7tt95]

OK, so 1500 units is a small market?

they did the same with the 08 twin too and i did not buy one because of it

you can't repeatedly not release a bike to a place like the USA a year late and call it a early next year model while we all watch the rest of the world(iceland LOL) get bikes when we only will buy 1500+ bikes

That's a TOTAL world production, not just the U.S. I believe, if I remember the stats off the top if my head, India had somewhere around 800,000 bikes imported into their country. We are most definitely not the center of the universe.

Aprilia will probably make 10x the number of Shivers as it does the RSV4 factory. So yeah, 1500 is a drop in the bucket. But I agree that I would have liked to see the bike here a whole lot sooner. It's the most important bike for Aprilia at the moment but not from an overall sales perspective. Image yes, overall sales volume no. Not to be confused with sales success.

[hank]

OK, just quick

NJ/NY/CT at least 17 dealers

TX has like 22

washinton st has 13

cali has 38

has to be like 200 dealers in the states and 4 each sold is not that hard to imagine

Do you understand that many of those dealers only sell Aprilia scooters, or are no longer 'active' dealers... There was a time when Aprilia was signing up dealers at an alarming rate - only to find that they were not able to maintain the flooring, sales or service requirements to support the brand... they are no longer active dealers...

And you state 17 in NY/NJ/CT area... well not, not according to the Aprilia Dealer site:
NY 6
NJ 5
CT 4

That's 15, not 17 so your numbers are off... and again, the info on that website is not realistic - e.g., Rollin Fast in NJ hasn't been an Aprilia dealer for quite a while... yet they are still listed on the Aprilia dealer locator website.

I could go on, but really.... :cheers:

[hank]

Hank, i think you are partially wrong

i have known of, and was looking to buy one in 2000 i just was not going to toss over $17,ooo back then. the bike name is far more popular then you think and we are now a decade later, not the same obscure name as you describe.

Most riders know the name and their positives but their price has kept them small not thier lack of popularity.

HA! there have been numerous threads on this site with people being asked "what's an Aprilia?" or "who makes Aprilia?"...

We are on an Aprilia forum that has active members from well over 45 countries - of course WE are familiar with the brand... Aprilia doesn't have the brand recognition that you think it does... Yes, it is far more known now than it was 10~12 years ago - that's been obvious and expected as the years go by and more and more people talk about it, but still - it isn't anywhere near the level of Ducati...

[mrgrn]

HA! there have been numerous threads on this site with people being asked "what's an Aprilia?" or "who makes Aprilia?"...

We are on an Aprilia forum that has active members from well over 45 countries - of course WE are familiar with the brand... Aprilia doesn't have the brand recognition that you think it does... Yes, it is far more known now than it was 10~12 years ago - that's been obvious and expected as the years go by and more and more people talk about it, but still - it isn't anywhere near the level of Ducati...

OK, it is not at the level of ducati, but so what? they are not trying to outsell ducati and your statements only show constantly your are trying to prove aprilia is small and unpopular NOT that they are silly for leaving the USA for last IMO

[hank]

OK, it is not at the level of ducati, but so what? they are not trying to outsell ducati and your statements only show constantly your are trying to prove aprilia is small and unpopular NOT that they are silly for leaving the USA for last IMO

Actually, my comments originally stemmed from your statement:


they are using europe to test the bike first b4 they make any last minute changes to release to us

When in fact Aprilia has (so far) never held off selling bikes in the US in order to give the US the best and latest version. And that history has already shown (as I stated) that it is the exact opposite of what you implied - the US has NOT even received the current ROW spec machine on occasion...

IIRC, the reason Aprilia was late to the US market back in 1998 was more so related to DOT paperwork and approval being started late. This was probably because of issues within the nascent Aprilia USA. Why they continued to put the older spec engine in the 2001 bikes sent to the US - well, you'll have to uncover that conspiracy theory yourself... There may even have been some threads about these topics, however the archive from the original AF1 Apriliaforum site was lost during conversion back in July, 2003. However, it does prove proof that your assertion was 180 degrees from reality... at least historically...

You continued to assert that Aprilia was 'making a mistake' by not getting to the US sooner as it is such a huge market for (all) motorcycles when (again), it is widely known that the US has historically NOT been a huge market for Aprilia. It may or may never be... but only time and Aprilia will know for certain...

I never claimed that Aprilia's are 'unpopular' in the US - far from it - I would actually say that they are very popular. However, brand awareness is concentrated among the people that are already familiar with them... I asserted that here in the US, the brand isn't as widely known outside of the existing Aprilia community as are other brands within both the 'masses' and even people who have a 'general' knowledge of motorcycles.

Virtually everyone has heard of HD, the major Japanese brands and even Ducati... but Aprilia? Hell, there are threads on this forum by people who already own one asking how to properly pronounce the name...

Why is the US getting the RSV4 after many of the other markets? I doubt it's because of DOT paperwork again... perhaps Aprilia knows something about projected RSV4 sales ROW v. the US?

Hell, IDK and outside of a few people, we can only speculate... but hmmmm, what scenario might possibly be inferred by this sales/marketing action??? :rolleyes:


:tired:

[Gman2005]

may i note that "officially" these pipe systems are illegal and are meant for race use only so Aprilia are offering a service for racing teams, in a weird way.


Gman

[AmareAprilia]

Why they continued to put the older spec engine in the 2001 bikes sent to the US - well, you'll have to uncover that conspiracy theory yourself... There may even have been some threads about these topics, however the archive from the original AF1 Apriliaforum site was lost during conversion back in July, 2003.

I don't know but it sounds like either DOT/EPA was that picky, costing Aprilia extra testing fees and redtape w/ the updated engine or they had leftover stock and thought nobody would notice using last years engine for the US export models. Do any of you old timers remember the rumors or speculation ?



perhaps Aprilia knows something about projected RSV4 sales ROW v. the US?

My projection for N. American V4 sales is tempered. Due to the economy, I highly doubt they crack 1000 units the first year.

[Diablo1]

IMy projection for N. American V4 sales is tempered. Due to the economy, I highly doubt they crack 1000 units the first year.

I doubt they build 1000 bikes for the US market, more like 1500 for the world.

[ckruzel]

its so rare anyone every knows what an aprilia is, even when they ask me what kind of bike it is and i say aprilia they always ask who makes it. we are unknown to the masses, only true enthusiasts know what an aprilia is

[mrgrn]

its so rare anyone every knows what an aprilia is, even when they ask me what kind of bike it is and i say aprilia they always ask who makes it. we are unknown to the masses, only true enthusiasts know what an aprilia is

i have to say i have not been around ANYBODY even squids who did not know who aprilia was, they are a household name now

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

The dealer numbers posted on ApriliaUSA's website are wildly inaccurate. In the Aprilia business we refer to "active" or "engaged" dealers and to all the rest as "inactive or non engaged" dealers. I do not know how many are listed for Texas. The "real" number is very small. AF1 in Central Texas sells the most bikes, Eximpot in Houston sells a few, Moto Austin Ducati sells a few and so does the San Antonio dealer, but literally we are talking a "few" per year. I have heard there is an active dealer in the Dallas area too but they have been through so many dealers that were set up and lasted less than a year that I do not know for sure who it certainly is. Possibly University Scooters?

The true number of active dealers for Aprilia brand in the USA is only about 40 to 50. This is because the total number of big bikes sold in the USA can only support about this number of dealers. Maybe the RSV4 will change this, God knows I am betting on it, and more bikes sold will be good for everyone, even if you might eventually see another one at your local bike night.

Aprilia is betting BIG TIME on the V4. The Shiver, Mana, Dorso, XV's and late model scooters have barely created a ripple in the water in terms of total bike sales. I know there are press releases every quarter from Piaggio USA claiming they are selling more bikes than ever but from the frontlines of the dealership and this forum I can calculate my own numbers pretty accurately. I am honestly guessing that 2001 was still one of Aprilia's best years in the USA, they honestly moved about 3k big bikes that year.

The USA market in total makes up LESS than 5% of Piaggio's sales and an unknown but similiar percentage of Aprilia's worldwide sales.

Tonight I raise a glass to toast the hopeful complete success of the RSV4 in changing the game here in the USA. As a dealer and an enthusiast of the brand from Noale the RSV4 is BY FAR the most important new bike they have done since about 1999 here in the USA. It is also the one and only bike that can determine the future of the company and it's network of active dealers. The dealer meeting for North America is coming in the ealry weeks of October, we get to ride the new V4 then and place orders. It will be an interesting meeting for sure.

[mrgrn]

The dealer numbers posted on ApriliaUSA's website are wildly inaccurate. In the Aprilia business we refer to "active" or "engaged" dealers and to all the rest as "inactive or non engaged" dealers. I do not know how many are listed for Texas. The "real" number is very small. AF1 in Central Texas sells the most bikes, Eximpot in Houston sells a few, Moto Austin Ducati sells a few and so does the San Antonio dealer, but literally we are talking a "few" per year. I have heard there is an active dealer in the Dallas area too but they have been through so many dealers that were set up and lasted less than a year that I do not know for sure who it certainly is. Possibly University Scooters?

The true number of active dealers for Aprilia brand in the USA is only about 40 to 50. This is because the total number of big bikes sold in the USA can only support about this number of dealers. Maybe the RSV4 will change this, God knows I am betting on it, and more bikes sold will be good for everyone, even if you might eventually see another one at your local bike night.

Aprilia is betting BIG TIME on the V4. The Shiver, Mana, Dorso, XV's and late model scooters have barely created a ripple in the water in terms of total bike sales. I know there are press releases every quarter from Piaggio USA claiming they are selling more bikes than ever but from the frontlines of the dealership and this forum I can calculate my own numbers pretty accurately. I am honestly guessing that 2001 was still one of Aprilia's best years in the USA, they honestly moved about 3k big bikes that year.

The USA market in total makes up LESS than 5% of Piaggio's sales and an unknown but similiar percentage of Aprilia's worldwide sales.

Tonight I raise a glass to toast the hopeful complete success of the RSV4 in changing the game here in the USA. As a dealer and an enthusiast of the brand from Noale the RSV4 is BY FAR the most important new bike they have done since about 1999 here in the USA. It is also the one and only bike that can determine the future of the company and it's network of active dealers. The dealer meeting for North America is coming in the ealry weeks of October, we get to ride the new V4 then and place orders. It will be an interesting meeting for sure.

very well said and to my initail thoughts on why though we are last in line if this bike is to make or break the USA effort for them then????

[Micah / AF1 Racing]

Why make it or break it? The really simple answer is that they NEED to sell more bikes all over the world and have close to zero penetration in the USA market, though being around them all the time makes me feel like there are a lot of them. The Dorsoduro is doing ok for sales but there is little doubt that the money they are making on it has done nothing to fill the void left by the XV line in terms of money lost. The Shiver is not selling well in the USA and the Mana is apparently ahead of it's time because it (IMO best bike they make right now) is not selling either. The XV line, though much improved over the horrendous bikes first brought to the USA, has done more harm to the brand image than anyone could have predicted. The scooters sold by Aprilia with the exception of the SR Ditech are all just re-badged Piaggio units, sort of like buying a Ford 500/Taurus/Mazda 6/Lincoln whatever/ Mercury whatever...brand engineering, not a wholly unique product at all.

From all initial reports it looks like the RSV4 is going to be a winner. This to me means they are going to sell for at or very near MSRP, they are going to somewhat exclusive, reliable, trouble free bikes.

The current RSVR and Tuono are great bikes, obviously with a few issues but awesome fun and track ready handling but, the swan song of the Rotax V990 is 2010 in the Tuono and was this year for the RSVR. If the new bike is not right, reliable and serviceable then Aprilia is in trouble.

As a dealer words cannot express how happy I am that no longer will I have to explain to everyone and their cousin that yes, GSXYZFBCBRZX is more powerful and lighter but the Aprilia is capable of humbling the same bikes, it is all about rider. The RSV4 is a no excuses bike and that is something Aprilia dealers have not had on the floor in a LONG time. Hopefully the RSV4 is the beganning of a new chapter in the history of Aprilia, and hopefully in a few years I will be servicing V4's with 60k miles on them. If Yamaha and Honda can build 100k reliable engines than so too can the rest of the world. No excuses.

Trust me, I am eagerly waiting the day that first crate shows up here in Texas. Of course #1 arriving is already spoken for, but maybe number #1 in the salvage pool will have my name on it.

[badrags]

Well said!

[Stretch]

1) From what I gathered from the Akra blurb (my full SS system arrived a month before the bike) their system is compatable with the stock mapping. I cannot tell if it is any better or not than stock as the Akra system went on before the bike was even started:D but it seems to run just fine. I guess the first track day will reveal any glitches with fuelling if there are any.

2) I agree with Hank. Legislation and red tape are huge deciding factors on which countries get what bikes and when. Hense our '98's vs US '99's, our 2000 vs US 200.5 etc

3) Mapping is always tricky. Europe has different fuel formulations to US, Oz, Africa etc. Formulations also change. Also there is a big difference in winter/summer formulations in some countries but much smaller differences in others. Throw in emmission regulations and manufacturers come up with ingenious methods to protect themselves from official criticism (remember the not made in Italy RSC Ti slip on?) Far better for them to take the safe conservative approach and let others do the fine tuning. Nothing devious here - the manufacturers are just playing it safe. Bet things will be different in a years time just like it was with the RSV twins.

4) Numbers always plays a big part. Aprilia are big in Europe but (as it has been pointed out) still tends to be an unknown elsewhere. People on this forum are the informed converted (and probably own/have owned other motorcycles as well). Like yourselves I get the question "but who makes Aprilia, Aprilla, Sprilla (insert funny misspelt name here)?. Or better still "is it imported?" Teenagers hankering after their first 125 are often the best informed thanks to following the 125 & 250 GP results via the 'net. The older generation are often less informed, like looking at the exotica but end up buying "something safe" like one of the big 4.

Bottom line - dont panic. Buy the bike, buy the pipe, enjoy

[wrx_02]

The dealer numbers posted on ApriliaUSA's website are wildly inaccurate. In the Aprilia business we refer to "active" or "engaged" dealers and to all the rest as "inactive or non engaged" dealers. I do not know how many are listed for Texas. The "real" number is very small. AF1 in Central Texas sells the most bikes, Eximpot in Houston sells a few, Moto Austin Ducati sells a few and so does the San Antonio dealer, but literally we are talking a "few" per year. I have heard there is an active dealer in the Dallas area too but they have been through so many dealers that were set up and lasted less than a year that I do not know for sure who it certainly is. Possibly University Scooters?

Maybe more than one But RPM cycles in Dallas/Farmer's Branch!

There is one in Fort Worth But I hate that dealer and refuse to go there. I wish I was closer to AF1 but RPM does a good job and tries there best to make thing right.


You dunno how long they have been dealer? I Hope it works out and and I never need work. :confused:

[MilleMikey]

I'm definitely noticing an increase of APE's in So. Cal.
When I attend a bike night, I'm not the only Aprilia there and I have been to Beach Burger before and seen 10 Aprilias before. Not to mention, they are some of the best bargains for used bikes out there.


In So Cal, we need stronger dealers, and I assume it is like this in most states as well. Everyone wants to point fingers at manufacturers, and yes, they do make mistakes, but I hear some pretty herendous stories about dealers, and it makes me feel a bit scared sometimes....

The RSV4 should be awesome. It's doing great in WSBK, has been raved in the magazines,and the public has been really enjoying not only the looks but sound of it from Miller, various dealers, KWS, and Laguna Seca.
It will also be at Indy GP.

My dealer, Long Beach + Amauri, have said that there might even be a demo truck starting up soon which will have the the RSV4 going across the U.S. before Aprilia's dealer meeting.

It sounds like Piaggio is definitely being more proactive in their attempt to not only help dealers, but help new customers find out what an Aprilia is all about.


my .02


M>

[Twinstar driver]

Quebec is known as being one of the highest per capita motorcycle sales areas in North America, this despite the weather and government.
Yet the other day I was stopped in a gas station and asked what an Aprilia was and since how long were they making them. Sometimes I think that Aprilia is more obscure to most people than a Guzzi, Morini or Laverda !

Watching the RSV4 performances in WSBK warms my heart .The make is making great gains in exposure and prestige. While it's understandable that they have ROI goals, let's hope that Aprilia doesn't acquire a reputation for fleecing its' customers in the process through a quirky pricing strategy on parts and accessories.

[dougan]

Their largest market by far has been the EU where the brand is a household name - here in the US, the brand was virtually unheard of and it is still rather obscure to Americans



Aprilia is still an obscure brand here in the US.


Aprilia is still an obscure brand in Europe. Period. Far from a household name, the likes of Ducati, H-D, Japanese. There are just as few Aprilia Motorcycle dealers here in Europe as there are in the US.

There are many Piaggio scooter dealers - but they are not motorcycle dealers.... and if you live in Europe... you know that Scooter riders are a much different breed than motorcycle riders. I'm not talking about like, they are pussies or something... I'm saying, they tend to have a mentality more like a US soccer mom when it comes to the brand of transportation they use. They know that it gets them from point A to point B.... they know that it is more fuel efficient than a car... they know that it is more fun than a train..... but brand identity among scooter riders is of little concern. SO, don't equate small output/scooter riders to the mass of household brand recognition... it doesn't compute like that.

Just like the US... the brand is known among certain circles... and those circles are not big.


Only really a household name in EU because of it's long scooter history and to some extent it's success racing two strokes. Certainly not for it's liter bikes.


We're not even close to being the largest motorcycle market. The top three are China, India and Indonesia. I'm willing to bet Vietnam is even higher than the U.S.

The US is the largest Mid to Large cc market in the world... by a lot. The DJB index and his articles spell that out in spades. I've worked closely with Don Brown, helping to develop economic models in respect to the motorcycle industry.... he is still the first stop for most major manufacturers when looking at the economic implications of new models, ranges of models, or particular market segments.

Again... this "Biggest Market" plays into the Scooter mentality. China, India, Brazil, et al.... may have the largest 2-wheel markets in the world... But there are some huge factors that shouldn't be overlooked when seeing the numbers:

+ As stated, Scooters/Small cap. machines DO NOT equate brand recognition - they are tools of transportation.

+ Scooter/Small Cap. machines DO NOT garner brand loyalty the way that Mid-Large Cap. machines do.

+ Margins for Scooter/Small Cap. machines are much less than those of Mid-Large Cap. machines - though these numbers are changing with manufacturing efficiency.

+ The Aftermarket Parts and Services market for Scooters/Small Cap. machines is nearly non-existent, with few exceptions.

+ The Aftermarket Parts and Services market for Mid-Large Cap. machines is where the bulk of 2-wheel profits are made; This market is HUGE.

+ In the US, 2-wheeled activity is a "recreation" or "leisure" activity... which may seem obvious to most... but the implications of that fact are enormous.