The future of two strokes

[dpmasunder]

We all know they are getting ban left, right and centre for environmental reasons, so what do you think will happen?
Disappear forever? Cult status? Nutter status?

[JonnyRS50]

The govenment will stop them from being produced brand new, but what has alredy been made is well superb and will be here forever, people will do things like RG500/RS250 conversions to make machines with alot of punch and superb handeling.

Just look at http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/bike/bikeproject.html

http://www.spirant.demon.co.uk/bike/aprilia.jpg

Truely awsome.

No big jap bike will beat that round the twistys, and cant beat it for individuality.

[dpmasunder]

Indeed, but those projects will have to be approved (ie, registered) by the same government. Could it be made illegal to re-register a 2t once the current registration expires?

Hope registration is the term used elsewhere.

[JonnyRS50]

In the UK registrations dont expire and i dont see why you couldnt take a road legal engine, to a road legal chassie and then not be allowed to register it, hell you can road register a honda RS250, it just aint very economical for road use so whats the point =P Just gotta put some plates on one and some brake lights then get it a daytime MOT, and its sorted =P

[dpmasunder]

Anything's road legal in the UK. Bastards. I'm off to bed, getting late, nice chatting Jonny! What's everyone else think?

[JonnyRS50]

Good night, not everything is road legal, but most things can be registered as road legal, seen loads of CR250's road registered.

[OldSkool]

Small CC bike and 2 stroke will come back in to trend again. If you read alot of the bike mags they are all saying people are starting to not want the biggest fastest bike, there are alot of riders out there who need down the pub figures, so 1000cc, 186mph, 0-60 in 0.01 seconds etc you get the picture performance you dont need. Even though a 250 will beat about everything when riden good the fact it the cc is 250 so you cant show off down the pub.

Hope fully this will change and we'll see a new wave of super lush race rep 250 2t's and super high reving 400 4t's all with some sweet GP tech, Japan produced alot of super cool 250's and 400's few years back due to there license laws but not that has changed and you can get a license to ride big cc bike easier so the demand for these bikes has stopped. They stopped making 250's in like 1997 and the RVF 400 was the last one not that long after.

Damn this snow i'm in the mood for a good blast :(

[Craig]

All things come back around, like Jonny said people will move to the projects like adding 500cc's into newer bikes but theres only so many 500's about and ppl with the will do do a convy.

Small 2t's will prolly stay i know im keeping my RS just for the hell of keeping it and owning one in years to come.

[JonnyRS50]

An example for a forever classic 2t, the RD250/350 still loads about! And somthing like say the RS125 is produced in the same sort of numbers.

[jenko]

oldskool is right alot of people are down sizing as ridiculas speeds are not needed,i.e people going to supermotards.

does any one know when they are being phased out or is it just a rumour in this country.

[JonnyRS50]

They have been getting phased out for years, just look at the general demise.

[Kickstart]

Hi

With direct injection 2 strokes can be made clean and fast. The problem with them is engine life.

I suspect it will get harder to register bikes for the road. It is quite difficult to get imported cars registered sometimes. Some friends who made kit cars for a living were putting one through a test while a couple of grey import cars were being done including an Evo 6 (I think). The Evo only just manages to pass the emmisions checks (as in thrash it for a bit, then try, fail, thrash it again, and try again, etc until it passes).

All the best

Keith

[JonnyRS50]

pfft no one is going to wanna ride a ditech (or whatever its called) aprilia RS125, thats just embarrising, even worse than the guy who i met in the army who thought it delivered better performance than a standard carb model!

[dpmasunder]

i would

[Key Walshe]

Doesn't the way fuel injection work mean more of the petrol gets used, so it makes for better fuel & oil consumption as most of it isn't going out of the exhaust, and makes tuning the bike easier -once parts are developed for it - as the fuel injection system can be altered easier and more effectively than a carb version. I've not looked for awhile, but on the SR50 DiTech page the tuned versions on there seem like serious kit nowadays and with more and more parts becoming available they are rivaling the carbed version in performance stakes, not bad for a 50cc scooter which has only been out a few years and has a very unique engine type in comparison to other scooters. Give it time and if one's sorted and a fuel injected Rs125 would be the much better bike than a carbed Rs125... though it doesn't look like that's ever going to hapen, well, not in the near future!

:goes to annoy Jonny more by mentioning the CBR125: hehe

With current EU legislations coming in I beleive the Rs125 & the Mito will be outlawed by 2006, maybe even the Rs50 and GPR etc. etc. so learner riders by then will have to get used to having to use 4 stroke diesels, like the CBR125 - which ofcourse by then could have progressed into more of a Sportsbike instead of the 'sporty CG' it is at the moment and they'll have a big headstart over their rivals in this market, only one of which at the moment is the Sachs XTC, and no offence to it, it's overpriced and not the prettiest of things and nobody even knows who they are, so unless Aprilia pulls its finger out and all the others Honda will have the market all to itself, can't criticise them for that as that's excellent business sense!

Personally I don't think an Rs125 will become a cult bike, people will look back at them with fondness in a few years time etc like they do now with FS-1E's (aka Fizzy's) but I think the Rs250 is already on it's way to cult-dom as it's the same kind of owners who own them as own the RD/LC's now and with it already being banned and nothing in that market, not even 400's, it's the last of it's generation!

2 strokes will come back though, they're one of the greatest engine designs in history, light weight & high power output, cheap & easy to maintain - though I'm sure some Rs125 owners will doubt that - but it's true! Things are just heading towards 'diesels'at the moment that's all... Just be glad you got to 'learn' on a bike like an Rs125, as at this rate it seems they ain't gonna be round long.

[jenko]

if that ditech injection is what i seen a program about a year ago, it is a very good system as engineers say small engine bikes are very uneconomical for there cc like some 1ltr cars can do 70mpg and a 50cc doesnt do much more and is 20 times smaller engine capacity!!
instead of normal injection squirting petty in it sprays it in as a mist which uses less petty and it combusts alot more and is no waste like a normal 50cc-125cc system.

is this the ditech system?

[dpmasunder]

Yep, thats it. It was developed by Orbital, an aussie company and is now used extensively in marine engines as well. Oh and Bimota had a go developing there own system on the vdue and there is no way anyone could claim that was a pussy bike. A dismal failure, yes, but when it worked.....

[JonnyRS50]

yeah but can cant really compaire the v due to anythingthong of nower times for a comparison, only like the RG500and thats some 20 year old now.

Im so upfor a RG500 conversion now i have it in my head, too bad im skint now.....aww well!

[dpmasunder]

wot stick a rg500 in an rs50?:D
just kidding, but if you want to use an rg motor for that kind of thing then grab one asap as they are getting harder to find

[spy_man]

read something in one of the mags ,not shure which one now , ill try and dig it out . basicly it was about aprilias new 400cc ditech 2 stroke enduro engine and how it was a possability that i could be used in a rs400 to fill the gap in the market that the rs250 has left ,also in same arcicle the possability of a 600cc 4stroke rs600 as aprilia are missing out on the biggest section of sports bikes (600s)

anyway this is all just talk at the moment but i for one would sign up for either the 400 or 600 straight away. after all our aprilias may be a bit tempremental but but they stand out from the crowd which means a lot. if you really want to be a sheep put on a wooly jumper ,go buy a honda and follow the heard.

just my opinion but then iam diferant just like my bike

p.s no offense intended to any honda riders (baah.)

[dpmasunder]

u sure it wasn't the new 450cc v-twin four stroke?

[Craig]

There was a small article on Apriia and a ditech500 thats been a success and could work its way out into sportsbikes.

Aprilia will have to do something soon, as with other palces as were lacking small bikes like 250's 400's for learners, and Aprilia need a 600 to compete with Yam and the rest.

[dpmasunder]

oooo yeah, that would be very cool indeed

[JonnyRS50]

Aprilia are developing a 450cc V Twin 4t engine that produces 70hp, its going to go on this supermoto bike that they are producing but there is quite a bit talk that they are going to use the same engine in the RS250 frame. would be a hell of a combo i think.

http://www.aprilia.com/portale/eng/caferac_articolo.phtml?id=27

follow that link for an article about the engine.

http://www.aprilia.com/dati/foto_caferac_head_27_1064427907.jpg

that looks like the future of small more engines in my eyes.

[dpmasunder]

yep, that's the one, but I'm convinced they're developing a whole new bike around it, like a baby mille

[JonnyRS50]

there is that super moto bike that is for certin, but im sure they will be doing somthing in a road bike formation with it to be replacing the RS250, its just logical!

[dpmasunder]

absolutely, but a lot of guys are saying they're just gonna chuck it into the 250 and sell that, I can't see that happening, it'll be a whole new bike

[spy_man]

yes craig you are correct it was indeed a ditech 500, ill try and dig the thing out if i can find it amoungst all my crap

[JonnyRS50]

We will just have to wait and see, i can see the engine having similar charicteristics to a 2t aswell, like peaky power in a small rev range, try emailing them and see if they will let anything slip =P

[spy_man]

yes craig you are correct it was indeed a ditech 500 i will try and dig out the article later if i can find it amoungst my crap

[OldSkool]

I got 3 words...

Two Stroke Diesel

or 4...

Supercharged Two Stroke Diesel

Dunno if diesel 2 stroke are cleaner or not but imagine your RS with a Supercharged diesel engine!

[Moon Child]

Is this the ditech you was on about????

http://www.maxmoto.co.uk/aprilia_leonardo_500_ditech.shtml

:peace:

[JonnyRS50]

500cc single cylinder 2t?!?! wow lol, i think i would of went for a twin minimum for a 500cc, not that much power though at 50bhp, keep in mind somthing like a CBR400 will make about 65bhp! and thats 100cc less and 4t!

[OldSkool]

I wish my cbr 400 made 65bhp!!!

You could buy me a full swona race system and some tuning work and dyno time johny then it might...

[OldSkool]

Whats wrong with a 500 2t single you said you'd love a CR 500 yesterday johny when i sent you that autotrader ad... thats a 500 2t single.

[dpmasunder]

50hp is what the 257 250cc single puts out, but keep in mind that ditech is for a scooter so they'll be after reliability and it's early days yet

[Falcon]

o man the thought of a 2t 500cc sports monster would be amazing! just imagine the noise :D:D:D cracking windows while doing 11k rpm down the road :D

u know aprilia should do it!

[OldSkool]

As for injection H***A played about with it on the nsr 500 when doohan was riding, he didn't like so it didn't go much further...

Look at the Bimota V-Due it was first made with carbs but wouldn't pass emissions so they made the injection and it was pretty crap. Then they went bust. Enough said.

Aprilia are doing well with the system on the scooter so hopefully one day they will make their own engine with the DiTech, say a nice 250 road bike.

Why didnt i just make one post???

[Key Walshe]

Didn't Bimota originally design the V-Due with fuel injection but it never worked right, and after several recalls finally decided to fit it with carbs but by then they was pretty much bankrupt?

As for the 500cc DiTech, it's only low revving, can't remember the figures now of what it revs to but for a scooter like that, being a 2 stroke do you seriously think they'd make the engine a high revving peaky one just for top end power?!? It will have plenty of torque though, yes 2 strokes have it too, and in theory more than a 4 stroke of same capacity, and with it being a single it will pull very strongly which is ofcourse what's wanted on a big scooter like that, not peak power in a 500rpm window like most other 2 strokes. And supposidly the DiTech system can't cope at high revs, which is the main draw back stopping them from putting it into a bike like an Rs250 which needs to be high revving. Give it time and one day.... maybe!

[Kickstart]

Originally posted by OldSkool
As for injection H***A played about with it on the nsr 500 when doohan was riding, he didn't like so it didn't go much further...

Yes, but they also made a very successfull direct fuel injected 2 stroke for use in an off road bike. They won various international races with it


Originally posted by OldSkool
Look at the Bimota V-Due it was first made with carbs but wouldn't pass emissions so they made the injection and it was pretty crap. Then they went bust. Enough said.

No, it was direct fuel injected from the start. The trouble was that they used the fuel hitting the piston to attomise the fuel, but this only worked properly over a very narrow rev range. This resulted in a very violent power band. On a Bimota mailing list I am on the Norwegian importer mentioned them having one tested for homologation for sale in Norway. The tester came back white faced.

They landed up modifying the bikes to carbs, along with a load of other changes. They lost about 10hp and became too dirty to sell in most markets but worked very well. When they went bust the new owners had now interest in the V Due so sold everything to do with them to another company who is now selling them off:-

http://www.bimota500vdue.com/eng/intro.htm

All the best

Keith

[Craig]

I too thought they did injection but it was naff so they reverted to carbs after sale.

I wouldnt mind getting my hands on a vdue :)

[jenko]

they say at the bottom it does a 1/4 mile in 12.5secs and that the r1 only does it 11.1 lol.500cc scooter nearly as fast as a r1!

[JonnyRS50]

humm i've had an idea.

Manufactures could make 2t ditech type bikes, knowing full well they are crap and dont work well, but are easily modifyed to carb use which will mean the bikes can get into the country and registered so they get around the immisions laws then you could get one, change it to a carb model, get it running super fast and what not.


Whats wrong with a 500 2t single you said you'd love a CR 500 yesterday johny when i sent you that autotrader ad... thats a 500 2t single.

Yeah but them bikes shift, no fuel injection crap there!

[OldSkool]

What is wrong with injection johny? You stuck in the past or something and can't accept change... oh you must be you still premix :D

[JonnyRS50]

Cant beat premixing! I have the best of both worlds though, because i have the oil injector running and premixing at the same time ;)

My problem with ditech engines at the moment are that they are seriously underpowered, 500cc single 2t and only 50bhp, is well, pathetic. Im sure when they start making the engine preform better, like a propper 2t then i'll like it =P

[OldSkool]

Arrr you are right Keith and Key, read through an article i had and it says it designed with the injection but it was a bit pants. Also said they had to sell it with the injection but you got the carbs in the crate to make it run!

The bloke how runs rsvr.net was arranging to buy them for people, shame my student loan isn't big enough
:p: