For the love of .....

[badrags]

http://www.visordown.com/motorcyclenews/view/wsb_engine_troubles_for_aprilias_new_rsv4/5850.html

This better be hear say!

[Diablo1]

One of the purposes of racing is to improve the knowledge, design, durability, and speed of the machine. Better they find out now that the engine is a hand grenade before they start mass production. Let's hope they're clever enough to sort out all the problems quickly.

[smaypilot]

Ha. Actually this does not surprise me at all. I'm not an Aprilia expert by any means, but my understanding is that Rotax has been Aprlia's major engine supplier right? It's just until recently that Aprilia got into building 4 stroke motors in house right? Again this is my high level understanding.

Personally when I heard that Aprilia was going to stop using Rotax and start building their own motors I thought right away of Ducati reliability (or lack there of). At least I hear past years of Ducati reliability were questionable. Ducati has had years to work on development and work out reliability issues. So I thought to myself right away won't it take some time for Aprilia to learn lessons and develop reliability? I mean sure CAD and better engineering principles exist today, but I can't imagine they can learn all about reliability in a lab. It's going to take the "real world" to find all the kinks and quirks. I mean now in a way Ducati has a leg up on Aprilia with the respect that you can't really say that an Aprilia motor is bullet proof anymore. It's going to take time before the new in-house motors can claim the same as the Rotax!

Hopefully this article is a load of BS. But again it's not going to surprise me next year in WSBK if there are a lot of failures and DNFs. I mean come on let's be realistic even without reliability issues it's going to take a lot of development to get the bike competitive. It's seem this bike is pretty new from the ground up. But let's hope for the best.

[Sal Khan]

Why wouldn't I be surprised? :D

[MilleR Time]

Hopefully this article is a load of BS. But again it's not going to surprise me next year in WSBK if there are a lot of failures and DNFs. I mean come on let's be realistic even without reliability issues it's going to take a lot of development to get the bike competitive. It's seem this bike is pretty new from the ground up. But let's hope for the best.

I agree and disagree with your post. While yes, i think you're on the right path and very obviously every new racebike is going to have a learning curve, Aprilia isn't new in this business as they've had winning ways for quite some time now. Look at the first incarnation of the Mille into the WSB fold as proof of their ability to build a bike right the first time.

I think it's just a new bike, new motor, new setup.. when you're paving new ground everything blows up, as I'm sure the original Mille broke many a part in it's development, but the bike came out great. The more shit that blows up straight away, the less you have to worry about it blowing up come raceday because those will be problems discovered early and designed out of the finished product.

If i had to wager, i'd bet that it's a slow newsday in the motorcycle press office and it makes news to report shit that really shouldn't be that surprising to anyone. "Hey yall.. a bike thats brand new and hasn't been ridden much isn't perfect." BFD, IMO. :D

[Miticale]

Id like to hope and agree with miller time, its pretty obv. that running a new engine esp. at wsbk levels, you're going to encouter problems. they're just flashing a light upon it but its nothing inredibly amazing or surprising

[budoist]

I thought the engine had been in test for a while now? Thought it would have been more stable at this point. Here's to hoping that they sort it out by next year.

[groundhog105]

The proof is looking right at us. Look at the bikes that Aprilia has produced recently. Even on this forum you see problems with the Shiver and other bikes that dont have the Rotax motor. Aprilia is going to have to go a long way to convince me to buy one of their new bikes. Think I will hang onto my Mille.

[soofle616]

The proof is looking right at us. Look at the bikes that Aprilia has produced recently. Even on this forum you see problems with the Shiver and other bikes that dont have the Rotax motor. Aprilia is going to have to go a long way to convince me to buy one of their new bikes. Think I will hang onto my Mille.

:plus: As much as i have a hardon for the v4, no way I'm going to even consider buying one until its gone through at least two or three model years for aprilia to get it straight. Italians are not know for reliability to being with and Aprilia is certainly no exception. Even the mille with its ?8? year history and powered by a motor built by a company that has been building motors forever has plenty of just plain stupid quality issues. Things like the infamous brown connector, cold soldered fuel pump connecter, crappy starter relay, sidestand switch, etc., etc., are proof that basic quality control is very simply lacking over there. Granted when you buy italian you buy into "quirks" like this but for these guys to now jump into a totally new engine in a very unusual configuration is just begging for problems. Sorry for the bashing Aprilia but you guys need to work just a wee bit harder with what you have before some of us are going to be willing to trust you with new technology.

[Tomisek]

Hello
about the quality issue with Mille, I guess there is not problem in quality control, cause these problem you wont find out in production, these are showing much later during everyday use.
The second issue is when so many customer reporting such problems that factory doesnt make even elementary changes.....

Yes the new engine is unusual construction, but the aprilia has lots of experience with engines production (125, 250 undertand it is not 4stroke).

On the other hand, problems with bike (engine) during testing doesnt mean the engine is bad (construction of engine is bad), there is lot of electronics involved, where I should see problem in first place.

[Devious1]

What you also need to consider is that the motor may be experiencing problems in "race trim"...Which is up over 25hp over the production motor. At 180hp the motor could be as reliable has the mailman, but in race trim who knows???

[Sal Khan]

Hopefully not the same mailman that delivers our mail. Ugh. ;)

[bobdavis73]

What you also need to consider is that the motor may be experiencing problems in "race trim"...Which is up over 25hp over the production motor. At 180hp the motor could be as reliable has the mailman, but in race trim who knows???


Nailhead well hit Devious1. When you think about it racing is all about maximizing hp and minimizing weight. That focus is wrought with materials approaching engineering stress limits. You tend to find out how close you can get to the edge by stepping over it sometimes. Bad things can happen. Just a thought.... I wonder who is keeping track of the Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki engine problems. I'll bet they are approaching the same limits and getting their asses kicked every once in a while. If they weren't they would not be doing their job. Aprilia had a strong wake up call on the SXV. They stepped up and fixed it quick. I have no reason to think they will rush another bike to the road before it is ready. I do like the idea that it is released over there before it gets here. I think we can count on all of the following from the new RSV-4;

It will be beautiful,
Fast,
handle like it's on rails,
brake with the best of them,
and be exotic to the max!

I'll be getting one if the economy doesn't take a dump on me.

Bob

[soofle616]

Hello
about the quality issue with Mille, I guess there is not problem in quality control, cause these problem you wont find out in production, these are showing much later during everyday use.
The second issue is when so many customer reporting such problems that factory doesnt make even elementary changes.....


A cold soldered joint IS a problem that can very easily be found during production, a simple tug on the wires post soldering would tell you real fast if the connection was made properly or not. Real world, that particular problem gets masked because the wires are held in place with potting compound so it takes a while for the electrical contact to be lost once everything is secured. As for common post purchase issues (brown connector, etc.) I don't necessarily blame aprilia for the initial issue as no manufacturer is perfect (hence warranties) but to go from 99-03 across multiple model lines without fixing it is irresponsible imo. Many of these issues could also be found ahead of time with proper road testing of a production (not a hand built test mule) model.


Nailhead well hit Devious1. When you think about it racing is all about maximizing hp and minimizing weight. That focus is wrought with materials approaching engineering stress limits. You tend to find out how close you can get to the edge by stepping over it sometimes. Bad things can happen. Just a thought.... I wonder who is keeping track of the Ducati, Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki engine problems. I'll bet they are approaching the same limits and getting their asses kicked every once in a while. If they weren't they would not be doing their job. Aprilia had a strong wake up call on the SXV. They stepped up and fixed it quick. I have no reason to think they will rush another bike to the road before it is ready. I do like the idea that it is released over there before it gets here.
Bob


Point absolutely granted. Although I would guess that duc, honda, kawi, etc. are probably not having quite as many issues as at this point I would have to assume their mills are more or less evolutions of something they already have whereas this is a brand spanking new beast with no history of any kind. I'm sure much of the problems are the result of a totally new platform while the remaining are the result of a totally new platform being pushed to the extreme end.
I hope you're right about aprilia learning their lesson about new models after the last couple disasters but regardless, I'm gonna hold onto my loot for a while. Not a big fan of being an unpaid and unwilling tester. Of course, if aprilia wants to shoot me over a freebie I would be more than happy to rail on it and send them a detailed report :D

[rx7tt95]

A bit more information from testing today...I guess the RSV4 wasn't starting up every time it was asked. Nice sound comparison between the RSV4 and R1 too.

http://www.motogpmatters.com/news/2008/11/04/world_superbike_testing_notes_from_portu.html

[NeoGeniX]

Some pics from portugal http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2008/wsbk/portugal/aprilia1/

[MilleR Time]

Well hell at least some no-starts are better that catastrophic engine failures. :)

[Crazy Horse]

This does surprise me. This is not a new engine to Aprilia, how long have they been testing it now? I would think the bugs would have been worked out by now. Has Yamaha been having problems with the new R1 engine?

[2pist]

Yamaha raced the new firing order all year in MotoGP. Aprilia will get the kinks out before WSBK starts in May.

[Dissident]

Yamaha raced the new firing order all year in MotoGP. Aprilia will get the kinks out before WSBK starts in May.

I believe the firing order on the GP bike is different than the R1 (big bang vs. not)

[Sal Khan]

I believe the firing order on the GP bike is different than the R1 (big bang vs. not)

Yeah the R1 is actually a LONG bang I believe. Plus, Fiat/Yamaha has a bit more money and resources at their disposal. :D

[Dactyl]

The proof is looking right at us. Look at the bikes that Aprilia has produced recently. Even on this forum you see problems with the Shiver and other bikes that dont have the Rotax motor.

???? There is no problems with the shiver motor...Not sure where you get your info

[2pist]

Yeah the R1 is actually a LONG bang I believe. Plus, Fiat/Yamaha has a bit more money and resources at their disposal. :D

The 09 R1 has the same firing order as the M1.

This off the Yamaha website:
"Introducing the 2009 YZF-R1, the first ever production motorcycle with a crossplane crankshaft. Crossplane technology, first pioneered in MotoGP racing with the M1"

[SlipinSlidin]

The new R1 DOES use a nonconventional firing order however it is not identical to the Big Bang used on the original M1's.


The 09 R1 has the same firing order as the M1.

This off the Yamaha website:
"Introducing the 2009 YZF-R1, the first ever production motorcycle with a crossplane crankshaft. Crossplane technology, first pioneered in MotoGP racing with the M1"

[badrags]

The M1 does not have a big bang engine.
http://www.yamaha-racing.com/Racing/motogp/bike/history/

The firing order on the M1 is the same as the 09 R1.

As for the Shiver, the problems may not lie in the engine, but overall quality is questionable.

[SlipinSlidin]

A cross plane crank is NOT a big bang engine.

A normal inline 4-cylinder engine uses a flat plane crankshaft (pairs of connecting rod journals are 180 degrees apart) and fires each cylinder evenly 180 degrees apart - 2 cylinders each revolution.

A big bang I4 uses a normal flat plane crankshaft (the connecting rod journal pairs are 180 degrees apart) and fires PAIRS of cylinders at the same time, with one pair firing each revolution.

A cross plane crank ( with all 4 rod journals 90 degrees apart) sets the firing order 90 degrees apart at the closest, and 270 degrees apart at the farthest. So the firing order can be either evenly spaced (180 degrees apart), oddly spaced (90, 180, and 270 degrees apart). There is no way to fire pairs in unison as in the big bang firing order.

Yamaha seems to be using an oddfire firing order on the cross plane crank.

[Diablo1]

According to Yamaha, big bang engines have no advantage for a road racer. Some of the manufacturers had problems with big bang engines because of heavy vibrational forces tearing the engine apart. Big bang engines may be beneficial for dirt track racers - some have been successful. The Yamaha theory is that the crossplane crankshaft prevents the crankshaft inertial torque from increasing greatly with rpm. They believe that high inertial torque lowers rear tire traction and prevents getting good drive out of corners. They also believe that high inertial torque prevents the rider from controlling the rear tire with the throttle. All of this should not be confused with how an engine sounds.

[SlipinSlidin]

This will explain eeeeverything you would like to know about the new R1's firing order!


http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34600

[Crazy Horse]

Does it really matter if the R1 and M1 have the same firing order? They are not even remotely close to being the same engine.

[kawibikeman]

yeah, arent we talking about aprilia engines here? I dont care if it only starts half the time.....it's what I call character. Im still buying one!

[smaypilot]

yeah, arent we talking about aprilia engines here? I dont care if it only starts half the time.....it's what I call character. Im still buying one!


I laugh when people say the unreliability of there bikes equals "character". I hear that a lot from Harley Davidson owners. When your RSV4 is sitting at home or in the shop because it won't start, you don't mind me asking "how's that wonderful character of a bike doing for you?" right afterwards I'll start my bike and head out for a ride.:peace:

:kidding:....I would still be jealous if you had the bike ....broken down or not ;)

[cosaro]

Look at the wording!

"SOURCES WITHIN the World Superbike paddock "
"It's alleged "
"The team are apparently "

Looks like utter shit. The guys cant put facts on the table. I hate this kind of news reporting. Wait...it isnt news. Its a bunch of twisted lies.
Give me names. Give me real data!!!!

[rx7tt95]

Long since dead, old old news. They've had two full tests now without a single issue on the bike itself. Their starter motor apparently quit on them during Max's test and Yamaha loaded their starter motor to Aprilia. It's a brand new engine/bike. Things like this will happen under testing. I mean how many Ducati's blew up under race conditions in 04? How bout BSB the early part of this year? And those were Jap bikes too.