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eeMattS
06-10-2008, 10:45 AM
Besides breaking the law, is there any reason why I couldn't run without mufflers? I am thinking I could fabricate a set of straight pipes to connect to the stock header.

The only thing I can foresee is that the fuel mapping wouldn't be perfect. Is there a way to tune it with a dyno and make my own map?

Just an idea.

Matt

catch2otwooo
06-10-2008, 11:39 AM
as far as straight pipes go, its possible. most of the aftermarket slip ons have no baffling in them anyway. The problem you run into is like you said, the fueling. on a simple scale, with any straight pipe/aftermarket pipe, you are essentially leaning out the motor. without a re-map to accomodate the new airflow, the bike will not run to its full potential. as of right now i havnt seen anyone such as power commander come out with a box to remap the shiver.

You wont be able to dyno tune it either since a dyno operator needs to write the new map on some kind of medium i.e a power comander or something to that effect. but give it some time im sure power commander will be on it soon.

Sike
06-10-2008, 11:42 AM
Besides breaking the law, is there any reason why I couldn't run without mufflers? I am thinking I could fabricate a set of straight pipes to connect to the stock header.

The only thing I can foresee is that the fuel mapping wouldn't be perfect. Is there a way to tune it with a dyno and make my own map?

Just an idea.

Matt

First, it usually sounds terrible. The people that put the Boz exhaust on their ZX10's almost all took them back off. Second, our system is a closed loop system, requiring an O2 sensor. Of course you could put that into your pipe, but I'm not sure that it would work in a situation like that.

Just a few thoughts.

catch2otwooo
06-10-2008, 12:13 PM
First, it usually sounds terrible. The people that put the Boz exhaust on their ZX10's almost all took them back off. Second, our system is a closed loop system, requiring an O2 sensor. Of course you could put that into your pipe, but I'm not sure that it would work in a situation like that.

Just a few thoughts.

i dont have my bike here but im 99% sure the 02 sensor is before the cat. so it wouldnt matter anyway. sound quality is person to person also. its usually not the lack of baffling but the lack of tubing. if you hack your exhaust off where they meet under the bike, ya it will probably sound terrible, but if you hack it off then ran tubing all the way up to where the stock exhaust goes now, it probably wont sound too bad.

Sike
06-10-2008, 12:24 PM
i dont have my bike here but im 99% sure the 02 sensor is before the cat. so it wouldnt matter anyway. sound quality is person to person also. its usually not the lack of baffling but the lack of tubing. if you hack your exhaust off where they meet under the bike, ya it will probably sound terrible, but if you hack it off then ran tubing all the way up to where the stock exhaust goes now, it probably wont sound too bad.

He had mentioned running it off the header, so I assumed no cat. Also, the last I heard, power commander hasn't produced anything to work with closed loop systems, because they can't interface, given the lack of the power commander to actually respond to the O2 sensor.

MV has been running closed loop for a while now, and as of last check there isn't anything (power commander, bazzaz, other) that works with it.

I do agree about the sound being personal, but I just haven't heard any open pipes that I liked (for more than the first or second rev).

Steve

eeMattS
06-10-2008, 12:25 PM
I was thinking of just replacing the slip-on. Or gutting and plumbing the stock exhaust. I believe the o2 sensor is on the header.

Two interesting tests would be to dyno a shiver without a slip-on at all and with a small section of piping.

I recently found an interesting post about exhaust design.
http://www.hayabusa.org/forums/?act=ST;f=47;t=30981

eeMattS
06-10-2008, 12:35 PM
Are there maps for any of the after market exhaust? I thought I read somewhere that people where getting new maps after installing slip-ons.

And if so, is that something the dealer can do?

catch2otwooo
06-10-2008, 01:10 PM
Sike: if the 02 sensor is before the cat, the cat can be removed with no ill effects to the 02 sensor. i am pretty sure the sensor is before it. thus they can sell a cat eliminator pipe without any kind of map or chip.

interesting about the closed loop system. didnt know that power commander never did closed loop stuff.

doesnt aprilia sell a "Race chip" or soemthing for the milles or something?

Matt: as of right now i havnt seen any maps or chips or anything for this bike.

burty
06-10-2008, 01:20 PM
There are lots of different chips for Milles. I think at least one from Aprilia

Nothing for Shiver yet as far as I know. But it wouldn't need it, a new map will do the job. On the Mille a new chip is the only way to a new map.

No doubt someone somewhere will eventually start writing new maps. But this system is new and more complex than most.

Sike
06-10-2008, 01:24 PM
Sike: if the 02 sensor is before the cat, the cat can be removed with no ill effects to the 02 sensor. i am pretty sure the sensor is before it. thus they can sell a cat eliminator pipe without any kind of map or chip.

interesting about the closed loop system. didnt know that power commander never did closed loop stuff.

doesnt aprilia sell a "Race chip" or soemthing for the milles or something?

Matt: as of right now i havnt seen any maps or chips or anything for this bike.

I would love to look at my bike to see where the O2/Cat are relative to each other, but that might be a few more days. I believe Aprilia's Race Chip is like Ducati's, where the system is built with it as a component that can be changed (I'm guessing like a storage chip). But, I don't know.
Steve

Sike
06-10-2008, 01:27 PM
AF1 was nice enough to have a pretty good picture. It looks like the cat eliminator pipe has the mount for the O2 sensor.

http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=5526

Not that that helps to understand everything????

Steve

catch2otwooo
06-10-2008, 01:34 PM
AF1 was nice enough to have a pretty good picture. It looks like the cat eliminator pipe has the mount for the O2 sensor.

http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=5526

Not that that helps to understand everything????

Steve

sure it does. good pic there. it helps us understand that the 02 sensor is examining exhaust gasses before it heads into the cat and mufflers. So if one decides to take off the cat and mufflers, the 02 sensor is still reading the same "pre cat, pre muffled" exhaust gasses. so put 2 and 2 together and we see that getting rid of the cat wont mess with any 02 sensor readings.

Matt if you wanted to just gut the muffler for better sound, id say go for it. it sure as hell would be chaeper then buying a set of leo slip ons. and since its all stainless, you can weld the baffles back in it if you dont like the sound.

i say go for it and take lots of pictures as you go along. remember measure twice cut once.


Burty, so most likely the shiver will need to get a chip in order to get a new map. if not, how do you get the new map into the bike without a fueling box such as a power commander?

burty
06-10-2008, 03:50 PM
Burty, so most likely the shiver will need to get a chip in order to get a new map. if not, how do you get the new map into the bike without a fueling box such as a power commander?

It's a programmable system.

That's how Aprilia can download new maps. No need for chips.

A Power commander will just modify a number of different settings to fool the ECU into doing things it wouldn't do without the PCIII. Consequently it can make the ECU supply more fuel or whatever than it would otherwise.

Sike
06-10-2008, 03:56 PM
It's a programmable system.

That's how Aprilia can download new maps. No need for chips.

A Power commander will just modify a number of different settings to fool the ECU into doing things it wouldn't do without the PCIII. Consequently it can make the ECU supply more fuel or whatever than it would otherwise.

Current powercommanders don't work with closed loop systems. PCIII's are a set program (that can be changed via your laptop) without ability to respond (to the bike's computer, which is responding to the O2 sensor), which is necessary for a closed loop system.

Steve

makrand
06-10-2008, 08:57 PM
Personally I find really loud bikes incredibly annoying and want to shoot the people who have them.
They just make the normals hate us more and thus more likely to run us off the road.
And that means all of us, not just the noise fans.

cheekythomas
06-11-2008, 06:09 AM
Only the older Milles needed chips, the newer ones are like the shiver and remappable.... with the Mille they recommend you turn off the closed loop system first and go to aprilias Map2 which ignores fuel economy, the enviroment etc and just makes the engine the most powerful it can be...

... theres plenty of closed loop systems running power commanders, most use there 02 sensor eliminator to basically ignore the closed loop part.

The reason the shiver is slow at getting such a device is nothing down to the ECU or the fact its closed loop, thats been about for years!... its the issue with the engine ECU and the fly by wire system... development has to be so careful as a power commander glitch on a normal bike could just mean a hic-cup in acceleration, but the shiver it could mean the throttle suddenly opening wide by itself.

captiva
06-11-2008, 08:34 AM
but the shiver it could mean the throttle suddenly opening wide by itself.

Jeez, given the bike's apparent propensity towards quirky reliability, I don't want to think about that too much.

Sike
06-11-2008, 12:11 PM
... theres plenty of closed loop systems running power commanders, most use there 02 sensor eliminator to basically ignore the closed loop part.

.

The no it doesn't, yes it does...... got me curious enough to call Dynojet about the PC-III's. They do have plans on making an option for the Shiver, they just need a bike to develop it on (volunteers). However, they eliminate the O2 function on bikes with a closed loop system (as Cheekythomas stated). They do have experience with the RBW bikes (R6's). There is no ETA for it being released. I'm wondering about warranty issues if you eliminate the O2??? However, the warranties don't last forever....

Steve

Grandia
06-11-2008, 01:17 PM
Are there maps for any of the after market exhaust? I thought I read somewhere that people where getting new maps after installing slip-ons.

And if so, is that something the dealer can do?

The Akra's will come with their own mapping AFAIK

catch2otwooo
06-11-2008, 01:57 PM
The Akra's will come with their own mapping AFAIK

so you would have to go back to the dealer for the remap?

makrand
06-11-2008, 03:20 PM
Please please please....

anyone want to donate their bike to dynojet for a day?

I would in a flash if they were within an hour or three of me.
Honest

Sike
06-11-2008, 03:26 PM
Please please please....

anyone want to donate their bike to dynojet for a day?

I would in a flash if they were within an hour or three of me.
Honest

I'm guessing, with floats on the front and a paddle wheel on the back, it might be quite a journey for you....

I'm pretty sure they are in California (same time zone as me, but a really long drive). So, anyone from CA willing to ask them about it??? The phone number I called is 1-800-992-4993.

Steve

catch2otwooo
06-11-2008, 03:51 PM
their site shows vegas.

chimyer
10-22-2008, 12:06 PM
I just spoke with the certified mechanic at my dealer and I was talking to him about removing the muffler and running open pipes off the cat. He said it would be louder (which I want) and it would give barely a little more power. Aside from that he said nothing else would happen. He said the warranty on the engine would not be voided and that it would run fine and it would not run lean.

Does this sound right. I am going to pull the mufflers off to see if I like the sound and if I do I am going to bend up some pipe so I don't burn my wife's feet when she rides with me.

Sike
10-22-2008, 12:12 PM
I just spoke with the certified mechanic at my dealer and I was talking to him about removing the muffler and running open pipes off the cat. He said it would be louder (which I want) and it would give barely a little more power. Aside from that he said nothing else would happen. He said the warranty on the engine would not be voided and that it would run fine and it would not run lean.

Does this sound right. I am going to pull the mufflers off to see if I like the sound and if I do I am going to bend up some pipe so I don't burn my wife's feet when she rides with me.

Given the location of the o2 sensor, he is probably right. The only suggestion I will make is to have the pipe you make ceramic coated (once you have made sure it fits and functions). This will help to insure the extra heat goes out the direction it should (and will probably only cost about $50). Also, there is a liquid grey that looks really nice.

chimyer
10-22-2008, 12:19 PM
I really like the look of exhaust pipe wrap when it is done right. Will this have the same effect as ceramic coating as far as directing the heat.

Also am I going to need to put anything on the underside of the seat such as a heat shield or a plate to cover anything exposed?

Sike
10-22-2008, 12:38 PM
I really like the look of exhaust pipe wrap when it is done right. Will this have the same effect as ceramic coating as far as directing the heat.

Also am I going to need to put anything on the underside of the seat such as a heat shield or a plate to cover anything exposed?

I think wrapping works about the same for heat. Either way, you should probably make a plate (do a search and you'll see examples, and pictures to why it makes sense to do a plate). Even if you are going to wrap it, you might still want to coat it, given that the tire is going to cover that wrap with crud, which will probably lead to re-wrapping and rust(if it isn't coated).

I also like the look of wrapping. Especially now that they sell it in black.

Good Luck, Steve

tapatio
10-22-2008, 02:53 PM
I just installed one of these last night using the OEM muffler. I like the sound and looks of the stock muffler, I might change my mind in the future.

http://www.af1racing.com/store/ProdImages/st2/LV8011.jpg


Sound
Bike is a little louder, more of a bark than a ruff if that makes any sense. It just sounds meaner.

Performance
Deceleration is 100% smoother, no popping or backfire anymore. Hard to tell if it changes the power curve but throttle response is crisper.

Heat
No difference, still burns the back of my left knee. I think I might try ceramic coating or exhaust wrap.

Country Shiver
10-22-2008, 11:48 PM
I did the $25 cat delete. Took the bike to a good local muffler shop and they cut out the cat and welded in a length of SS tubing. Saved 300 bucks. I would post some picks, but the bike is still in the shop. 84 days total now in the 5 1/2 months i've owned it it's been in the shop.

ILAMtitan
10-23-2008, 06:57 AM
I just spoke with the certified mechanic at my dealer and I was talking to him about removing the muffler and running open pipes off the cat. He said it would be louder (which I want) and it would give barely a little more power. Aside from that he said nothing else would happen. He said the warranty on the engine would not be voided and that it would run fine and it would not run lean.

Does this sound right. I am going to pull the mufflers off to see if I like the sound and if I do I am going to bend up some pipe so I don't burn my wife's feet when she rides with me.

It will be louder, but I doubt it will sound decent at all. I've seen several bike with just straight pipes and the noise they make is just a raucous growl, not pleasant at all. If you want good sound you are going to need a muffler. The Leo's are practicably just straight through pipes, but they provide resonance for the sound at least, and those who have heard them can attest to how beautiful they end up making the bike sound.

chimyer
10-23-2008, 08:52 AM
I have very little knowledge about this stuff so please humor me.....
Why do you have to go with a specific muffler for a certain bike?
Any muffler shop can bend pipe for you fairly cheep. I had this done on my truck.
After the pipe is bent why can't you get any muffler for a 750 cc engine and make a connection piece and be on your way?

Sike
10-23-2008, 09:02 AM
I have very little knowledge about this stuff so please humor me.....
Why do you have to go with a specific muffler for a certain bike?
Any muffler shop can bend pipe for you fairly cheep. I had this done on my truck.
After the pipe is bent why can't you get any muffler for a 750 cc engine and make a connection piece and be on your way?

Most anything is possible, but there are easy and hard ways to do things. From your orginal post, I thought you were/are going to just run a straight pipe off of the cat. That would be pretty easy for any shop to create, then you could have it coated and/or wrapped. Using a different muffler might become rather difficult, mostly due to finding a manner in which to attach it solidly. And, in the end, some of these projects end up costing more than buying the already made product. What is it that you are trying to achieve?

Steve

By the way, cars and bikes react very differently to mufflers. It isn't uncommon for a bike to actually lose power with a muffler that isn't right for it.

chimyer
10-23-2008, 09:06 AM
My original idea was to go without a muffler but I was looking for alternatives if I didn't like the sound.

Sike
10-23-2008, 10:02 AM
My original idea was to go without a muffler but I was looking for alternatives if I didn't like the sound.

If you run a straight pipe and don't like it, you could always try a shorty gp exhaust like the one in the link below (welded in line with your straight pipe). However, by the time that you do all of this, you will be approaching the cost of Leo's. However, if you do it and like it, it would be cool.

http://www.motonekoparts.com/files/detailed/d_5331.png

Good Luck, Steve

ILAMtitan
10-23-2008, 10:39 AM
I have very little knowledge about this stuff so please humor me.....
Why do you have to go with a specific muffler for a certain bike?
Any muffler shop can bend pipe for you fairly cheep. I had this done on my truck.
After the pipe is bent why can't you get any muffler for a 750 cc engine and make a connection piece and be on your way?

Mufflers specifically made for a bike are designed to properly mount and install, as well as provide a very specific back pressure. There is also a certain amount of styling put into them in most cases.

In my opinion, owning a motorcycle is more than just a means of transportation, it's a statement of a lifestyle. The ascetics of my bike are important to that statement, and the sound it makes is part of it. A good looking, good sounding, and good performing set of pipes may cost a bit more, but they can be worth it.

If you were to just toss on any old muffler, you would need to make you own mounts which can be messy, and it wouldn't be tuned to have the same sound. You are also talking about much closer tolerances on a bike due to the size, which can further complicate things.