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license2ill
12-11-2003, 03:34 AM
Just thought I'd share some info I've compiled on back protectors and CE standards.

There are currently no standards or testing procedures necessary to call a piece of cardboard "the best protection system on the planet" in the United States. It is ridiculous to buy gear based on marketing hype, sponsorship deals, rumors, arbitrary crash experience, looks, feel, and name recognition. Real, scientifically derived numbers should be the first reason for buying a piece of "protective" gear, always.

It can be very confusing, but after some discussions and some minimal online research I have found a few companies that offer actual CE approved back protectors and SPECIFY compliance with the proper back protector CE standards:

Alpinestars
BKS
Clover
Dainese
Knox
Spidi
T-pro

All of the protectors are only good for a single-use due to the structure and/or crushable materials used to absorb impact, though a few offer better protection for multiple impacts during a crash.

The CE BACK PROTECTOR standard is labeled EN1621-2. The test is performed with a 5kg “kerbstone” dropped from one meter to create the test impact force of 50 Joules The standard contains two levels of energy transmission performance. 18kN passes LEVEL 1 "basic" compliance and 9kN passes LEVEL 2 "high performance" compliance. So LEVEL 2 protectors allow 50% less energy to reach the spine. .

***4kN is the medically recommended level of transmitted force, but is NOT actually required by the current CE back protector standard EN1621-2 LEVEL 1 or LEVEL 2, and most protectors cannot provide this level at the 50 Joule impact level.

***BKS actually offers back protectors that meet the medically established 4kN energy transmission level, as well as limb armor that meets the CE 1621-1 standard's "extreme performance" of energy absorption for limb/joint armor(see below for an explanation of limb/joint armor standards). BKS seems to have the right attitude and the highest quality merchandise available, but they are also THE most expensive producer of leather motorcycle apparel on the planet. Should we really have to pay $3000.00 for the kind of better overall protection we need, and only have one choice in leathers that meet some baseline testing requirements? Nobody else claims suits that are 100% CE approved in each area(abrasion, tearing, seam burst, and impact) as a whole.

http://www.bksleather.co.uk/techno.htm


The CE LIMB/JOINT protector standard is labeled EN1621-1, it allows joint/limb armor to transmit no more than 35kN of force. Both of the CE body armor standards(back or limb) use the same amount of energy as a starting point, 50 joules. However, limb/joint armor is rated based on its performance at an initial force of 50 joules, 75 joules, or 100 joules, leading to 3 levels of performance within the standard. They all must allow no more than 35 kN of energy to transmit: LEVEL 1 (50 joules), LEVEL 2 "high performance" (75 joules), and LEVEL 3 "extreme performance" (100 joules). “Astrene” gel/foam is the highest rated material used in body armor(8mm non-perforated thickness), followed closely by “Astrosorb” in varieties of thickness and perforated forms.

http://www.pva-ppe.org.uk/ PART%203...20EXPLAINED.htm

Here's an excerpt from the link above with an explanation of the current CE Back Protector Standards:

"Draft standard prEN 1621-2 covers back protectors. This may well have been published as a full standard by the time you read this article. The impact energy is the same as for limb protectors, at 50 Joules, but the transmitted force is lower than for limb protectors at 18 kN for Level 1 products and 9 kN for the higher performance Level 2 products. There has been criticism of the standard from medical experts who consider the transmitted force levels too severe; citing decades of automotive research which indicates 4 kN is the maximum force the brittle bones which form the human ribcage can withstand before they fracture. Four kiloNewtons is the requirement adopted in standards covering, for example, horse riders' body protectors and martial arts equipment.

Attempts to reduce the transmitted force requirement to 4 kN and to correspondingly reduce the 50 Joule impact energy requirement were strongly resisted by industry, who claimed consumers would be confused by different impact energy requirements between EN1621-1 and EN1621-2.

In truth, it was in the industry's commercial interests to test both types of protector at 50J, since they could then extol the efficacy of back protectors which, when struck with the same impact energy as limb protectors, transmitted only 9 or 18 kN compared to 35 kN. The consumer would be unaware that subtle differences in the impactor and anvil were responsible, and still less aware that 9 kN was still more than double the safe limit supported by medical experts. Furthermore, during the late 1990s, some companies had used the wholly inappropriate EN 1621-1 to CE mark their back protectors. Commercial objectives were given priority over consumer safety.

Despite these concerns, EN1621-2 represents a starting point from wholly unsafe products should be rendered obsolete and unsellable. It will be important, however, for consumers to ensure back protectors are marked with the correct standard number, if they are not to mistakenly purchase an old stock.

Finally, there are a small number of back protectors on the market which have been dual-tested against the requirements of EN1621-2 and also against a 4 kN transmitted force requirement. Reading the manufacturer's technical information will disclose which are the superior products.(--HaHa, don't we wish that was true.)"

So the EN1621-2 standard contains two levels that are considered passing. One transmits no more than 18kN of force(LEVEL 1), and the other transmits no more than 9kN(LEVEL 2), but both of these levels fall within that 1621-2 back protector standard. So keep in mind that when a protector is just labeled as CE approved, when no mention is made of the level of performance, that should be interpreted as LEVEL 1 approval.


Here's a list of back protectors starting with the Level 2 rated protectors, followed by some Level 1 protectors, and finally by those that are not rated and/or offer no performance data:

T-Pro's Forcefield back protector is CE certified to the 1621-2 LEVEL 2 standards, making it one of the few that advertises meeting this higher level. T-Pro appears to have a similar attitude to BKS, their products appear to be similar, their site is full of good info.

The most interesting piece of info from the T-Pro Body Armor site:

"Back Protection for Motorcyclists--Only a few motorcyclists receive a direct blow to the spine causing serious injury; more spine injuries are probably due to direct blows to the shoulders and hips. The products commonly known as motorcyclists back protectors, if correctly designed and constructed may alleviate some minor direct impacts on the back, but will not prevent skeletal or neurological injuries to the spine in motorcycle accidents."

http://www.tprobodyarmour.co.uk/ff_back.html

http://www.johnsonleather.com/armor/


Dainese doesn't tout or even mention CE approval anywhere on their own website, but I did manage to find some info on the Dainese protectors from MotoLiberty's website. Dainese makes many models, not all advertise the same levels of protection. They use an aluminum honeycomb structure, similar to the Knox protectors.

"The new Dainese folding back protector is made with a hard plastic tortoise shell type construction. It has an optimum shock absorption capacity which easily superceded the tough test at the highest level, EN1621-2 LEVEL 2."

The Dainese Wave 2 protector is CE rated LEVEL 1.

The BAP protectors are also CE approved, LEVEL 1.

The Back Space and Gilet Space models make NO rating or CE approval claims that I have been able to find.

http://www.dainese.it

http://www.motoliberty.com/prod_detail.asp?ProdID=34


Alpinestars states that their Tech Protector is 1621-2 approved, meaning LEVEL 1 approved.

http://www.alpinestars.com/_lp/moto_protection.htm


Fieldsheer claims in their marketing copy that the X20 back protector exceeds all CE standards leaving the specifics to the imagination but do not directly refer to the actual certification or standard that their protector has passed.

"The X20 back protector provides protection internally using a new "honey comb" plastic core, proved to exceed all European CE standards."

Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but if you read it carefully, what is that really saying? Has it been certified? Has it been tested as a whole? Is the design or the final product proven to CE levels? All CE standards?

I have recently received confirmation from an X20 owner that it is properly rated to the 1621-2 LEVEL 1 standard. Not the best, as they make it sound, but properly rated and certified nonetheless.

http://www.fieldsheer.com/products


Knox doesn't specify the level that any of there back protectors comply with, just that they are approved to the appropriate 1621-2 standard. They offer the largest coverage area of any of the protectors available.

http://www.planet-knox.com/Knox/index.asp


Spidi offers two families of CE approved back protector options, the Airback and Warriors.

The Airback protector is CE Level 1 approved.

The Warrior “mid” and “low” options are LEVEL 1 approved, but offer very little coverage area, focusing on the lumbar region with no shoulder blade coverage. Spidi touts its own Airback protector as being more effective because of its shoulder blade coverage and the nature of most initial crash impacts hitting the shoulder blade region.

However, it is more confusing with the standard and “compact” versions of the Warrior protectors. I noticed a difference the photos of the Spidi Warrior protectors on the Spidi USA website vs. the Italian site (English version). The US website shows a Warrior protector that looks completely different than the Warrior protectors on the Italian website. I was told that the European version is updated and not yet available in the U.S which would explain these differences.

Both websites state that the regular Warrior and “compact” versions are only compliant with the CE Directives for PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), which have nothing to do with the actual testing performance or standards for the equipment. The Directives are simply an ethics code and basis for testing procedures and standards operations. This is a very misleading statement regarding the effectiveness of these products.

http://www.spidi.it/spidi-jsp/index.jsp?lang=en

http://www.spidiusa.com/Category.ph...gory=protection

http://www.ce-marking.org/directive-89686eec-PPE.html


The Giali protector claims CE approval. No mention of level. It is a European model, so it is probably properly approved to the LEVEL 1 standard.

http://www.motorcycle-uk.com/giali/...Protectors.html


The Clover back protector, another European brand, is specified to meet LEVEL 1 standards, no word of availability of Clover protectors in the U.S.

http://www.bbbikeshop.co.uk/acatalo...ectors_329.html


Kobe back protectors claim CE approval as well, but no mention of which standard or level.

http://www.1888fastlap.com


Knox makes reference to improper use of CE claims by other companies. They don't name names, but it appears to be in response to Bohn's non-certified CE labeling practice. Bohn uses a CE label without actually being certified. Bohn also does not specify which standard they are referring to in their marketing statements of "exceeding CE specs" or "built to European CE standards". An article on the British Motorcycle Federation website implies that unnamed companies are being sued for improperly using the CE mark and not complying with the proper specs for back protectors. I cannot find any actual information that directly refers to Bohn or the standards that Bohn allegedly meets or exceeds.

http://www.bmf.co.uk/briefing/index.php?brief24.inc.shtml

Bohn's website offers no specific information regarding which CE specs are being met and how it is being proven. I find this claim to be blatantly deceptive and deceitful. Such claims should be backed-up. Any company that tries to tag-on to safety standards and markings without actually providing open evidence or paying for the right to market its products using the standard is not selling in good faith.

But they do offer-up some gems, like this quote from Eric Bostrom.

"After testing at the Jan 2000 Laguna Shakedown Eric reported: '...really comfortable, and made me feel safe on the bike' "

Boy that was convincing, haha. Yes, that is the entire testimonial.

The other claim by Bohn is that their protectors can be used for multiple crashes. This goes against all other information about the only materials in use that will absorb the necessary amount of energy to meet the 1621-2 standard. So far, there are no companies that meet the proper standards without using materials that permanently deform after a crash impact, or multiple impacts during a single crash, just like helmets.

Is Bohn referring to the correct back protector standard when they make this claim? Well, Bohn’s claim was made prior to the existence of the 1621-2 back protector standard, and they have still refused to submit for proper testing and certification.

http://www.bohnarmor.com/bohnarmor/index.asp

http://www.actionstation.com/proracer.html


Impact Armor protectors make claims that they are ""Designed to exceed ALL European CE specifications for armor", but do not provide any actual performance data and are NOT actually CE certified. As with any claims like this, unless it is backed-up with any sort of proof or reference to the proper back protector CE standard or levels it is a worthless statement. The CE had not introduced the 1621-2 back protector standards at the time that statement about the "design" was originally published.

Impact Armor relies on testimonials from unpaid professional racers, but nothing in the way of proven results of crash worthiness or protective levels in their marketing or correspondence.

I had email correspondence with Michael Braxton, owner of Impact Armor. He seemed friendly, but unwilling to divulge any real information about how his Impact Armor protectors have performed in tests. In fact, I got the gist that they haven't been tested at all or at least in the current form. He focuses on theory, which is fine, but the theory varies from a final product in practical terms. I inferred that his theories were tested in the early '90s while working with T-Pro. I don't know the complete history of T-Pro and Impact Armor or Michael Braxton, but I am leery of his evasiveness and lip service to safety and standards in our correspondence, though his intentions did sound sincere. However when it comes to my safety, somebody's sincere intentions won't buy a cup of coffee.

According to Braxton, “Frankly, the cost, time and bureaucracy to obtain CE certification is just not worth the hassle... And if you did subject your self to the process, the quality of your product is treated no differently than the others.…”

Frankly, I think that “quality” would be revealed by performance testing. What the hell does he mean by that statement? It’s absolutely laughable.

According to Paul Varnessy, head of PVA Technical File Services, “It actually costs less to test and certify a motorcycle suit than it does the average pair of safety shoes - as proven by the fact that the first companies to achieve EC type approval were the small, UK manufacturers of bespoke motorcyclists’ clothing.”

www.impactarmor.com


Joe Rocket's website says very little about their GPX back protector. It is NOT shown to be CE certified. It is, however, made with the same material that BKS uses in their body armor, "Astrosorb", one of the highest-rated foams used in LIMB/JOINT armor, but make no reference to the thickness used or performance results, just that it is one-piece. Other companies have stated that Astrosorb alone will not meet the CE back protector standards.

http://www.joerocket.com/catalog


Helimot also makes no claims, but has an interesting theory behind their TLV protector. Its an American product so of course it has not been tested, proven, or certified. I have heard stories of the owner of Helimot performing "real world" tests with a hammer for skeptics, but sorry, I'd rather have repeatable measurements than seat-of my-pants guesses at what crash forces are going to feel like. These dramatic exhibitions should be saved for differentiating the meaning of the data, rather than basing your presumptions of efficacy on them.

http://www.helimot.com/catalog


Teknic(though they also sell Knox products) make no specific claims of protective levels or performance results.

http://www.teknicgear.com/pages


The NJK, another American model that offers nothing about protection levels or certifications:

http://www.njkleathers.com/bp.html


The Italian made UFO back protectors don't specify protection levels or performance data either. Don't know about their availability in the U.S.

http://www.gobike.com.au/category494_1.htm


There are plenty more out there, the important thing is to know what to look for before you spend any more money thinking you have the safest possible piece of equipment. In the end you must ask yourself how much limited personal experience, limited arbitrary crash experience, limited knowledge of the real forces at work in any crash story, and the beliefs of others in what they have heard through the grapevine. The problem with decisions made with any of that information is that it is never complete or accurate, no matter how well-intentioned it may be. Is any of this sort of speculation going to satisfy your motivation to part with your money? What information will provide you with the safety expectations you have decided are appropriate?

Trying to figure-out safety and protective differences, which are the only qualities that truly matter in the end, is WAY too complicated. You and I should not have to go to great lengths to find or understand the safety differences in any piece of so-called "protective equipment", whether that title is explicit or implied. The need for a Snell-type standard in the US that is clear, comprehensive, and concise is the only solution. And we need to make it happen now. We have no standards for motorcycle gear in the United States, which means somebody can slap a piece of cardboard together, and call it the world's best protection system ever, and it may even look the part. I'm also sure that you could find some racers or average Joe's to swear by it as well. Perpetuation of poor information and marketing hype leaves too much to our own speculation as the basis for our protective measures.

Sorry for the length. Hope this can help in your decisions though. I also hope the entire motorcycling community can make it a point to be more thorough in the buying process when it comes to so-called protective gear. All of these questions, and any misinformation, marketing hype, and rumors can be avoided with a simple testing procedure.

Snell labeling for helmets has been successful and we need to demand something similar for the rest of our body. Maybe an email to the AMA, ABATE, NHTSA, MSF, Snell, or any other organization that might have our true interests at heart will make a difference, and gain us some respect in the marketplace. If "something is better than nothing" then "something better" can be just that.

Smoke Eater
12-11-2003, 07:48 AM
I do agree that body armor standards are very important. However, there aren't too many riders even using back protectors. Even if it doesn't meet the standard any back protection, within reason, is better than nothing. Those pitiful foam pads that come with a jacket will protect more than just thin leather. I have a Bohn and wear it all the time. My Oxtar boots are CE approved. What does that mean? I don't know but they are great boots and do the job.

My 2 cents. Standardized and certified armor would be great. The biggest hurdle is to get people to use it.

sproggy
12-11-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Smoke Eater
Even if it doesn't meet the standard any back protection, within reason, is better than nothing.

I can't agree with that. Some less reputable manufacturers will stick any old piece of plastic, foam or whatever in the back of a jacket or suit and call it a back protector. In some cases it is conceivable that such a mis-guided act could do more harm than good if the 'protector' is made of an inappropriate material (e.g. one that splinters on impact or compresses with no resisitance) or is not the correct length, position or shape for the person riding it. If a back protector is not the correct length or is in the wrong position it can cause localised spinal pressure particularly lower down the back far greater than had it not been worn at all. Incorrect shaping can also cause localised pressure-spots in the case of an accident and an unhealthy posture whenever it is worn.

Because of this I would argue that ALL back protection should be tested to a state, national or international standard, and without such testing it shouldn't be sold. This, as licence2ill points out, is already the case with helmets, the main difference being that in most places helmets are compulsory under law while back-protectors are not, and are unlikely ever to be unless the world goes mad.....

Smoke Eater
12-11-2003, 09:57 AM
That's why I wrote "within reason". I don't think any of the companies producing back protection are malicious and designing products that will cause more damage. Suomy helmets don't meet all the US testing standards but they do conform to other standards that are as good or better.

Anyway, your statements about all helmets being tested is not true in the US. You can go to events and festivals where there are booths (stands) selling helmets that are NOT tested or approved but in the very next booth there are DOT stickers for sale for $1. Its a way around the helmet laws. In general, its the Harley riders who buy this crap along with some swanky black fringe. As long as it fits properly that counterfeit helmet is probably a better option than a bare skull. Its no where near as good as a quality helmet but atleast its something.

There are many things that are designed to protect but can harm occasionally. Airbags kill a number of people each year but many more are saved by them.

The Joe Rocket Phoenix jacket in another thread is a good example. Would it be my choice for a 90 mph crash? Nope. But I'd take it over a t-shirt.

For the record, I always buy and wear the best protective gear available.

license2ill
12-11-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Smoke Eater
I don't think any of the companies producing back protection are malicious...

The Joe Rocket Phoenix jacket in another thread is a good example. Would it be my choice for a 90 mph crash? Nope. But I'd take it over a t-shirt.

For the record, I always buy and wear the best protective gear available.

This is very much my point about all protective gear. These companies aren't outright malicious, but direct intentions and indirect outcomes are the important issue.

The marketing copy for items like the Pheonix jacket are remarkably similar to what are assumed to be better products, ie leather racing suits. The only known differences between these options are the assumptions we make about them based on whatever prior knowledge, emotional attachments, arbitrary expereience, or rumors we've heard.

There are a lot of "better than nothing" options, but we should be passed that point by now, and should realize that when money is spent on something that implies use for the application of riding or crashing, that it perform MUCH better than nothing or any other standard clothing options available at your local department store.

Nothing shouldn be marketed as or implied to be "protective" unless protective meets a performance level set forth with testing procedures. Unfortunately terms like "best" or "quality" are interchanged with "safety" or "safest" when we really don't know if that's the case.

It's truly amazing to think that in 2003, we don't have any standards in place for motorcycle clothing in the U.S. The FDA was created nearly 100 years ago for some of the very same reasons.

Chuck B
12-11-2003, 03:27 PM
Motorcycle Consumer News (US mag version) ran an interesting article on virtually all riding gear available. They split it down by even with what materials were used and tested them individually. It was interesting to note the differences in leathers (quality makes a huge difference) and even with textiles as they reacted (protected) differently in abrasion versus impact.

Todays manufactures have a wide assortment of materials to chose from. All are pretty good in their own right. ITs the hidden factors like stiching that can set a garment apart.

For me personnally....I'll never ride without a helmit. I always prefer one piece over two piece...too easy to leave the pants behind. Only wear deerskin gloves and fully protected boots. While not "tested" I love my helimot back protector!

Smoke Eater
12-12-2003, 09:31 AM
I agree.

What about the airbag jackets? Technology that isn't quite there yet but has huge potential especially for neck and spine protection. The funny thing is that it will probably never be available in the US because of liability issues.

Bertha
12-12-2003, 10:40 AM
When I wear my full gear I NEVER leave home with out my back protector... I just feel better with it on. Hope I never have to use it.

stinky
12-12-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Smoke Eater
I agree.

What about the airbag jackets? Technology that isn't quite there yet but has huge potential especially for neck and spine protection. The funny thing is that it will probably never be available in the US because of liability issues.

That's what they said about ABS (for both motorcycles and autos) and auto airbags.

sproggy
12-12-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by stinky
That's what they said about ABS (for both motorcycles and autos) and auto airbags.

But did you know that airbags on US spec cars are different from those on otherwise identical European spec ones? This is because of (a) Americans' tendency to drive without seatbelts, meaning that at the time of impact they have already moved closer to the wheel then a European driver wearing a seat belt and (b) possible law suits caused by 'impact' or 'burning' from the airbag - you guys over there tend to sue for the slightest thing instead of being grateful that the bag saved your face.... ;)

The latter point (above) might discourage manufacturers from producing airbag jackets for the US market. Also, it's much more difficult to set the 'trigger' for airbag jackets than it is for car bags, leading to less predictable and consistent deployment. Would a rider's movement during an impact be the same whether they were riding a Mille or a Capo? No, hence the problems.

Smoke Eater
12-12-2003, 11:58 AM
The prototype that I saw had a tether attached to the bike and inflated a spine pad and neck collar. It was pretty cool.

The whole law suit issue here is ridiculous. I think that if you sue someone and lose then you owe them for the amount you were after. That would cut down on the frivilous suits made by Betty Trialer Hog against the Walmarts and Food Lions.

stinky
12-12-2003, 12:13 PM
You'll get no argument from me about the sue-happiness of the US. I wish people would stop trying to blame everyone else for what happens to them and start taking a little responsibility for their own actions.

I know, I know - wish in one hand, spit in the other...

Making the loser pay all the court costs would be a good start, tho...

Ohmygewd
12-13-2003, 04:30 PM
The Australian made UFO protectors Actually made by UFO Plastics from Italy.

license2ill
12-13-2003, 04:43 PM
Thanks, I guess it was a distributor that I found in Australia, but that's the only info a quick web search turned-up. Do you have any addtional info on UFO protectors or any others? Being that the UFO is an Italian product, they are most likely CE approved, but I have no idea about availability in the U.S.

All of the info I have cited or referrenced about protectors is taken directly from the manufacturer's or distributor's websites.

With the CE requirements info provided by the British Motorcylist Federation's Buyer's Guide.

hank
12-14-2003, 04:02 PM
Good investigative reporting...

kangaroo skin is awesome - I love my Held gloves and Daytona boots. I would like to find someone who makes a kangaroo 1-piece (no pun intended).

Next time I'm in the London, I'll cjheckout the BKS leathers for a back protector as well.

Cheers

Crono
12-18-2003, 02:49 PM
A couple of months ago we had a big comparison test in Spain of practically all brands of backprotectors. If anyone is interested I could try to dig out the testresults in the pile of old paper laying in the garagae to get recycled. (my wife puts in to get recycled and I rescue the bike mags' from that every day:D )

Good were AXO, Alpinestar and of course the latest Dainese,
Best value for money AXO

Crono

theImmoralist
12-19-2003, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by license2ill
Helimot makes no claims, but has an intersting theory behinf their TLV protector...I have heard stories of the owner of Helimot performing "real world" tests with a hammer for skeptics, but sorry, I'd rather have repeatable measurements than seat-of my-pants guesses at what crash forces are going to feel like.

I agree with the general point of your post and appreciate the presentation of your research.

However, with respect to your casual dismissal of the Helimot back protector I wonder if you are selling Helmut (the owner) short. I did what you refer to as "real world" tests myself, by putting my arm underneath various back protectors and then both hitting them with a hammer and dropping various sized weights on them. It's true that these kinds of "test" are at best a guess at what a crash will feel like, but they are still very instructive nonetheless.

I compared the Helimot TLV with Knox, Dainese, and Bohn back protectors. It was immediately obvious that less force was transmitted through the Helimot than with the others. Given that experience, why would I buy one of the other products even if they have some formal certification?

Helmut also has various brands of back protectors cut apart so you can see exactly how they are made. Some of them were truly shocking; the "protective" pads were just chunks of plastic.

In the absence of some national certification (which I don't see happening very soon), I appreciate Helimot's efforts to build an innovative product -AND- to let his customers compare it with the other products on the market. With a helmet you can't very put it on and hit yourself with a hammer, which is why certification is important. At least with body armor and back protection you can gain first-hand experience.

license2ill
12-19-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by theImmoralist
I agree with the general point of your post and appreciate the presentation of your research.

However, with respect to your casual dismissal of the Helimot back protector I wonder if you are selling Helmut (the owner) short. I did what you refer to as "real world" tests myself, by putting my arm underneath various back protectors and then both hitting them with a hammer and dropping various sized weights on them. It's true that these kinds of "test" are at best a guess at what a crash will feel like, but they are still very instructive nonetheless.

I compared the Helimot TLV with Knox, Dainese, and Bohn back protectors. It was immediately obvious that less force was transmitted through the Helimot than with the others. Given that experience, why would I buy one of the other products even if they have some formal certification?

Helmut also has various brands of back protectors cut apart so you can see exactly how they are made. Some of them were truly shocking; the "protective" pads were just chunks of plastic.

In the absence of some national certification (which I don't see happening very soon), I appreciate Helimot's efforts to build an innovative product -AND- to let his customers compare it with the other products on the market. With a helmet you can't very put it on and hit yourself with a hammer, which is why certification is important. At least with body armor and back protection you can gain first-hand experience.

I'm really not dismissing Helimot's product, I just have no hard facts to form any positive opinion about their product. I think the lack of performance results information in their marketing copy speaks for itself.

I appereciate Helmut's intentions, but I believe that real performance data, rather than seat-of-the-pants testing, is the only way to set yourself apart, when no other formal certification is met. Of course, just because their product is only sold in the United States doesn't mean that they can't seek CE certification or be tested by a formal body either. They will claim that this is too much of a hassle and too expensive, but I just think that shows the extent of their care of the issue. Many products are sold on the basis of formal independent testing, there is no barrier to providing real data.

I can also appreciate your real world observations, but realize that they are subjective and minimal by scientific standards. Helimot knew the outcome before you walked in the door. These kinds of "tests" are not meant to find real answers, and if you look at other similarly-devised tests, they are usually performed by charlatans in an attempt to deceive, rather than reveal something numbers could have shown in the first place. All the drama should at least be backed-up by measurements of the forces. In fact, this kind of show would be great way to distinguish the meaning of the differneces in the numbers, not the other way around.

Testing gear this way is always a guess. We need hard numbers, whether their is a standard or certification or not. If these manufacturers are sincere and responsible, then they should release test data, meaning actual real numbers under repeatable tresting methods. This is a far cry from "trained-eye" assumptions of the materials used or knowledge of their efficacy. A good expample of a wrong assumption about materials is that of a bullet-proof vest. Most people would, without hestiation, say that a 1/2 inch thick aluminum vest is more likely to stop bullets than a flimsy textile(Kevlar) one. Well, we know that these kinds of assumptions are not what we should base a buying decision on for that kind of equipment.

First-hand experience(crashing) with body "armor" should never be the way we find-out if it works to our expectation or not. I just hope Helimot as well as other well-intentioned gear manufacturers will show the level of their dedication through providing the right information and go through the right channels to provide the level of protection that we are all seeking to buy.

Beau1K
02-27-2007, 12:38 AM
:bump: :bump: :bump: :bump: :bump: for a good thread :)

hank
02-27-2007, 10:41 AM
Here is an idea I read on another motorcycle forum - from the equestrian world....

Phoenix Performance Tipperary Vests

http://www.phoenixperformance.com/products/default.asp?cat=C001

license2ill
02-27-2007, 02:56 PM
Here is an idea I read on another motorcycle forum - from the equestrian world....

Phoenix Performance Tipperary Vests

http://www.phoenixperformance.com/products/default.asp?cat=C001


I've recently talked about the horse riders torso protector standards, which are much more appropriate to real protective value needs than anything labeled for motorcyclist use. However, after a few people bought what they thought was a BETA 2000 level 3 appoved Tipperary "AIR" Esprit, come to find out that Phoenix had dropped the certification with the latest version(the Air).

A rider that bought one noticed no literature about the BETA standard, just an unknown ASTM standard met by the piece. Phoenix said they droppd the mark as they chose to focus on the North American market and changed materials in the vest in the process. They had no knowledge of the differences or any of the requirements of either standard, but I can bet that the ASTM standard is not nearly as thorough or appropriate as the BETA or CE standard covering them. It's unfortunatley still being sold on many a website dealer as a BETA certifid piece, when it's actually not.

The horse riding vests may be a great idea and much better performers than mc gear, just make sure it's marked to meet the BETA 2000 Level 3 or the CE EN13158 standard.

Beau1K
02-27-2007, 03:01 PM
So what's the bottom line? Which 1 product should we all use to be the safest...what offers us the most protection. Not really looking for a disertation on the qualities of X, Y & Z...just a reccomendation.

dragan
02-27-2007, 03:19 PM
So what's the bottom line? Which 1 product should we all use to be the safest...what offers us the most protection. Not really looking for a disertation on the qualities of X, Y & Z...just a reccomendation.

Hey Beau,
I think I mentioned it in a different thrad, but can't find it right now so here goes. I'm very happy with my Bohn carbon/kevlar spine protector. they actually have a better one called the proracer that has kidney protectors built in too.

Beau1K
02-27-2007, 03:20 PM
Hey Beau,
I think I mentioned it in a different thrad, but can't find it right now so here goes. I'm very happy with my Bohn carbon/kevlar spine protector. they actually have a better one called the proracer that has kidney protectors built in too.

I'm very happy with my Dainese one too...but I was just wondering since this guy has done all this extensive research what his conclusions were.

dragan
02-27-2007, 03:25 PM
Wait there's supposed to be a conclusion? :WTF: I though this was just another thread to have pointless arguments on ..... just messing with you license, the info was actually very insightful. I'm just sick as hell today (stupid clients) and am curng my boredom here.

license2ill
02-27-2007, 03:27 PM
So what's the bottom line? Which 1 product should we all use to be the safest...what offers us the most protection. Not really looking for a disertation on the qualities of X, Y & Z...just a reccomendation.

At minimum you should look for a CE EN1621-2 Level 2 piece. Other areas of value may come into play after that like price, comfort, mulitple impact-usability, etc. The T-Pro is probably the best option available there in terms of overall value, as shown by numerous


If a BETA 2000 or EN13158 horse riding vest works for you, even better for overall torso protection value.

The bottomline is having something with known values, and buying to the best of those known values wtih something you can stand to wear and afford.

hank
02-27-2007, 03:33 PM
So what's the bottom line? Which 1 product should we all use to be the safest...what offers us the most protection. Not really looking for a disertation on the qualities of X, Y & Z...just a reccomendation.

I have owned several brands over the years... I currently wear a T-Pro Forcefield and I have a Bohn as a back-up/spare in case someone forgets theirs.

aceyx
03-02-2007, 09:18 AM
I compared the Helimot TLV with Knox, Dainese, and Bohn back protectors. It was immediately obvious that less force was transmitted through the Helimot than with the others.
How hard were you hitting it?

In actuality, a back protector that transfers more force when you hit it will be safer in a high-speed accident.

license2ill
03-02-2007, 04:29 PM
How hard were you hitting it?

In actuality, a back protector that transfers more force when you hit it will be safer in a high-speed accident.

That's not the case at all. None of the current pieces made for motorcycling transfer little enough force at current testing drop severities to actually prevent injuries at that level of crash energy of the test. What that means is that their range is limited to energies that are less severe, or useless throught the range completely(something that hasn't limited forces to tolerance levels along the range of crash severity).

This is the reason for using a load-concentrating anvil in the test(a hemi/curb stone). Astars and Dainese had, hard outer pieces which require a more severe(through a concentrated surface area) blow to get them to collapse properly. Unfortunately, those pieces still don't lower forces enough when they do crush, so again concessions were made in the development of the standard to raise the limits of force transmission for them to pass, with the addition of second level at 50% less, a bar some newer products(2002) could achieve. Neither level was based on the body tolerance needs(rib cage fractures) of 4kN, but instead on what the current crop of inferior tech marketing specials(read hard shells) could attain(18kN). Basically, the maximum braking force a piece can provide is what we want, but only within the constraints of the human tolerance of those forces. Stepping outside the tolerance threshold results in irrelevant use. The same could be said for something that can only provide those levels at crash energies that don't relate to the activity or provide the range of use that is needed for differences in outcomes, meaning something a hit of 10J vs that of 50J.

Foams work fairly linearly, but have a point at which they cease to affect outcomes, once past their threshold for managin energies, they become a rock, bottoming out with no impact management to be had. With honeycomb sturctures, the range can be more limited, and a design can possibly cheat the test by not crushing through a complete range of energes, but still workng at a chosen test energy. That is something Dainese has been accused of with their current aluminum honeycomb design, that, as said above, doesn;t perform real well at test levels either.

On the topic of those honeycombs and hitting protectors. The Knox, Dainese, and Astars pieces are all one-time use honeycombs or EPS foam cores. One hit, they are done. With the idea of pain tolearance levels, its a far cry from real injury tolerances. When tested with accurate crash energies, ribs will be at the point of fracture, and bruising would have been certain. The CE test uses a 5kg(11lb) ball dropped from a meter to create the 50J test energy. That's far more than someone hitting a piece with a hammer, a bat, a fist, etc. Drop a bowling ball(or shotput) from 40" your back to achieve that minimal test energy as used by the CE standard.

aceyx
03-06-2007, 12:59 AM
What I meant to say is that a stiffer core can absorb greater impact, thus transferring less to the body.

There is a reason for the hard shell -- dispersion / distribution.

Bruises and fractures are fine, when what you're trying to prevent is death.

license2ill
03-06-2007, 02:10 AM
What I meant to say is that a stiffer core can absorb greater impact, thus transferring less to the body.

There is a reason for the hard shell -- dispersion / distribution.

Bruises and fractures are fine, when what you're trying to prevent is death.

Yeah, injuries solved by padding over the back are not going to be life-threatening. It's different for a helmet, but there is still a threshold of injuries that revolve around the capabilities of the designs, technologies, and industry cries. Right now it's limited to simple fractures and bruising, and that's probably as much as we will ever be able to expect or even really need out of a "back protector". The thing is, most of them aren;t up to that task through a great range of severities, making that the first step and priority for the pieces. For the current materials, ergomnomic concerns, and general market aceptance, designs for helmets combine a hard shell and foam structure, but for back protectors those designs are typically less effective for lowering forces to the neccessary levels of the threshold for the basic injuries they are there to prevent or minimize. It's all about specs and those tolerance numbers they need to meet in the end.

abikebloke
03-08-2007, 07:01 AM
An analysis of hospitalised road riders with back injuries shows that impact injuries are rare indeed.


See Motorcycle Council of NSW reference website on Protective clothing
http://www.roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/77.html
(The reference site for riding kit for the US Army Combat Readiness Centre)


Back protectors and lumbar protectors (EN 1621-2) are intended to provide protection against impacts against edges such as kerbing. However, while some 13% of motorcyclists sustain back injuries in crashes, the majority of these injuries are due to blows to the head or to bending and twisting of the back. A back protector will not prevent these types of injury. Less than 1% of injured riders suffer serious injuries from direct blows to the spinal area, however back protectors will provide protection from more minor injuries such as bruises and strains (EN 1621-2, p. 4).

So, the back protector is really of little value on the road, although damn useful trackday for huge high speed highsides where the fall may be 4 metres onto the dragons teeth.

However, commercial interests will raise the fear factor for road riders, using the same leverage that says you should dress like Rossi by buying "this" suit.
Have close look at the photos - Rossi's suit is made of leather that is nearly twice as thick as what you can buy.

Protection? What about "consumer protection"