Valve adjustment on break in service?

[Android]

Quick question; did your dealer adjust your valves during the post break-in service?

My dealer didn't, and they said it isn't part of the service at that point. My maual and my gut say otherwise.

[nostatic]

adjust the valves? No way. They don't even check them until 12K miles.

This isn't a Ducati, where you have to adjust the valves every 16 hours ;)

[makrand]

Mine had a look but they were fine.

[burty]

adjust the valves? No way. They don't even check them until 12K miles.

This isn't a Ducati, where you have to adjust the valves every 16 hours ;)

Sorry that is wrong. This is amongst the most important elements of the first service. The manual is quite clear. If it's not been done, take it back. They might rarely need adjusting but that's not the point.

[boom boom rsv]

I asked my local dealer when the clearances need doing, as I remember my RSV had a check done at first service (600 miles) and he told me this new engine only requires the check at 6000 miles. :confused:

[zvez]

Maks' right, the 2008 manual says valves are to be checked at 625 miles. My dealer told me they don't check them.

The bad part is, will my dealer check them or just charge me as if they had? Bummer as I was going to ride it up there and wait, so guess I'll have to take it in the truck.

Chris

[J.Bauer]

Mine were checked @ my first service. They were all within spec.

[nostatic]

how are they "checking" them?

[J.Bauer]

I'm no mechanic...but...I would guess:
Take the cover off, and use some sort of valve position/gap measurement tool, make sure it is within spec and then adjust if needed.

Ed gave me his hand-written notes from checking mine. Circles representing each valve with little measurement numbers that I only somewhat understood.

[nostatic]

Sounds thorough. I believe that sometimes the ECU will have information about the valves and they can be "checked" that way (but I could be mistaken).

How much shop time did they charge for the 600 mile service? Seems if they do check the valves it will be over 1 hour.

[Android]

I went to my dealer today and got them to double check the service spec, and yes they DO need doing. I'll be getting it done next week, along with the tri-map.

[burty]

Sounds thorough. I believe that sometimes the ECU will have information about the valves and they can be "checked" that way (but I could be mistaken).

How much shop time did they charge for the 600 mile service? Seems if they do check the valves it will be over 1 hour.

I'd think minimum 3-4 hours.

My first service was discounted to £200, and the workshop claimed to be making a loss on that.

TBH the rest of the service is trivial, if nothing needs to be fixed.

I can't see how the ECU will know anything about the valve clearances.

[pete roper]

Sounds thorough. I believe that sometimes the ECU will have information about the valves and they can be "checked" that way (but I could be mistaken).

How much shop time did they charge for the 600 mile service? Seems if they do check the valves it will be over 1 hour.

I can't imagine any way the ECU would be able to determine if the valves need adjusting????

While I'm not familiar with this engine 'L' twins do have the disadvantage that the rear pot is usually hidden under a load of stuff like tank, airbox and/or electronics etc. which makes getting to the valves a bit tiresome and time consuming. At least with the Shiver you won't have to take the rear shock out like you do on a Monster to get at the valves.

Being a DOHC engine I assume that the valve clearances are set by shims under buckets? That means that if any need adjusting the cams have to come out. Not a big deal but it IS time consuming. I know a lot of people who don't do their own maintenance and just take the bike in to be serviced may think they are being 'Ripped off' but the fact is that modern motorbikes ARE time consuming to service, (With a few exceptions, I can do the valves on my Griso 8V in about 15 minutes :D) hence the need for the factories to try to promote extended service intervals which I'm afraid I remain deeply distrustful of. (Quite frankly anybody who leaves their oil in their engine for 10,000Kms is, IMHO, bonkers!)

Providing the work is actually DONE by someone who knows what they are doing you aren't being ripped off. If you don't like the service costs? Buy something simpler with lower costs, it's that easy. The trade off is that something simpler will probably not provider the same level of performance or enjoyment. You pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

Pete

[nostatic]

I wasn't whining - just asking the question. I own the Aprilia (and previously Ducatis) for a reason. Plus I had a '79 Porsche 911 track car so I know all about tradeoffs :-p . The ECU is monitoring a bunch of stuff, so maybe if power is down it makes an extrapolation? I'm no mechanic...but I do know that modern electronics are replacing many previously mechanical checks and functions (ie modifying map based on fuel octane rating, monitoring oil levels, etc).

Since my shop only charged me an hour labor I'm sure they didn't check/adjust the valves. I know my Triumph didn't need a valve check until 12K, and I don't think the Ducs get a check/adjust at 600m (they did at 6K, now 7.5K). I'll call them and ask what the scoop is.

[pete roper]

I wasn't whining - just asking the question.


Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you were whining, if it appeared that way I apologise. All I was trying to point out is that with a lot of modern machines some of the service tasks may well be time consuming and therefore it is wrong to assume that simply because a job is expensive the service agent is trying to shaft you somehow. I know it is a common conception among certain sectors of the motorcycling community.

I'm very lucky in that my business has very low overheads and I don't have to chase the mighty dollar. I'm more than happy for customers to stick around and watch me work and learn stuff at the same time if they want. I have more than enough confidence in my own abilities not to be worried about people seeing me work. Not many businesses have that luxury though.

Even so there are still people who even if they've been with you the whole time you're working on their bike and watch the clock the whole time still think they're being stiffed! "I could do that!" they say. Well, maybe they could if they'd known how before they were shown, had a full tool kit worth thousands of dollars, a workshop equipped to carry out the work and a brain bigger than a peanut connected to hands that aren't all thumbs!:bangwall::happy:

Pete

[nostatic]

There are good shops and bad shops. My mechanical abilities are...interesting. I can build a bicycle up from scratching including wheels. Learned while working part time in a shop during grad school when I was riding/racing as well. I never got particularly good working on my track car, as I didn't have the tools, garage space, or patience. That's part of why I eventually sold it after 4 seasons...paying the shop to work on it was putting me in the poorhouse.

Seems like doing stuff on the bike should be viable, but I learn best watching/helping someone else. I would love to have a shop that would let me observe. Or have someone local who knows that they're doing and I buy the food and beer. I have no qualms doing oil changes and I installed clip-ons on my Multistrada. Valve adjust would require someone who knew what the hell they were doing (ie not me).

[perfect]

My dealer check mine on the first service and made me drop it off the night before so it could cool down properly before they checked them

Perfect

[makrand]

Welcome back Dan.
Did ya go on the bike?

My dealer did something similar.
He said I had to leave it for a couple of hours to cool down before he could do it.
So that would be the clue I guess.

[pete roper]

Some motors the clearances are set hot but most are done cold nowadays. the reason you have a clearance is to allow for thermal expansion of parts without the risk of there not being a point in the cycle where oil can get between the various parts in the valvetrain and also to prevent the valve being held off the seat when the engine is hot. While this will seriously compromise performance it won't, initially, diminish compression so much that the mixture won't combust. What it DOES mean is that as the charge ignites hot gasses, hot as an oxy torch flame, will rush past the valve. No valve will put up with that for long and once burnt you loose compression completely and the engine stops.

Also it should be remembered that even in normal service the neck of your exhaust valves will be glowing dull red. The way valves dump heat is through the guide and primarily through the seat when the valve is closed. If the valve isn't seating it can't dump heat so the head will fall off!

Yes, making sure the clearances are within spec is important.

Pete

[makrand]

Great to know there's someone who knows what they are talking about on here.

I didn't now half that stuff.

[nostatic]

I know the valves were always adjusted on my old 911 when they were bone cold. I've talked to two shops now though that say "no need" when it comes to checking the valves at 600 miles. Not sure if that is a holdover from their experience with the Rotax engines though, as they were fairly legendary for being bombproof and rarely needing valve adjustments.

[pete roper]

I PD's my Griso 1200 and all the valves were as tight as buggery. Rode it 800Km and did the first service. They were all as loose as a whore's draws! I'll be checking 'em again at 3,000km. Yup, it's a lot easier on a Guzzi but checking valve clearances is a lot easier than removing a cylinder head and replacing the valves:happy:.

One presumes that the factory specifies checking the clearances at the first service because they think its worthwhile? Some things in some first service instructions strike me as a bit odd, (EG. Dismantling Showa forks and rebuilding them at 1000km??? What's that all about???) but checking the valve clearances isn't among the things I'd be prone to ignore. Once a database is built up showing that they DON'T need adjusting then it would seem sensible to allow that to act as an override. But given that the Shiver is a comparatively new model with little ino available I'd suggest it's better to err on the side of caution. Thats me though. If anyone else is happy to risk serious enbgine damage to save a few $'s be my guest:bump:

Pete

Pete

[nostatic]

I will likely have them checked if/when I do new pipes, but if the dealer is saying, "no need" and the engine grenades under warranty...then it should be covered. I didn't read the manual closely before I took it in for the service (my bad) but the dealer should also be "on the ball." Seeing as how this was their first Shiver service, I assume they looked up what was recommended by Aprilia. The manual could be superseded by newer guidelines. It would be nice if they also translated the parts that are still in Italian :D

Ducati was actually pretty good in that regard. My Multistrada had worn valve guides at about 5K miles. Dealer did a valve job no questions asked. And in fact they have covered a number of Multis that were even out of warranty (mine was still under warranty as I was riding about 1K/month). Evidently they had a run of soft guides during production. One would like to think that if Aprilia wants to make a "come back" in the US market they will take care of their customers.

[pete roper]

My Multistrada had worn valve guides at about 5K miles.

Heaven forfend! I Ducati that shags out its valve guides! Who'd'a thunk it??

They all do that Sir. It's part of their 'Character' and 'Charm' (NOT!)

Pete

[timcrasher]

The Shiver does need the valves checking at first service. And to be honest, they are probably the easiest to check of all the bikes I currently work on. There is plenty of clearance and the way the top end is designed, make adjustment a piece of p#ss.
If your dealer isn't checking them, they are just being lazy, and doing themselves out of some money.
As the Shiver, and the range of models yet to come, will all have longer service intervals, you get to see the customers and their bikes less frequently. That's why it pays to do a good thorough job, and keep everyone happy.
I have yet to find a clearance in need of adjustment as the Shiver engine is considerably over engineered, but as the service intervals are longer any problems wont be detected until it is possibly too late to be avoided.

[pete roper]

Am I right in assuming shim under bucket? Or do they have some peverse rocker arangement?

pete

[burty]

You are correct. According to the manual they have a shim under the bucket.

[auto]

Yes,it is shim under the bucket,but the nice part of this design is the jack shaft and gear driven cam shafts.I believe the engine designer came from Husqvarna,where he did the new husky 4 stroke motor.I have a 04 450 and it's almost the same design.The husky has rocker arms that can be slide off to the side for shim removal.In the Aprilia design the cams have to be removed to gain access to the buckets,but you do not have to touch the cam chain.This design is sweet.I don't own a Aprilia but if they bring out a adventure bike based on the Dursduro I'm their.With BMW pushing back the gs 800 release,Aprilia has a great oppertunity to be a player in this market segment.I only hope they had the forsight to have such a bike well under way.

[makrand]

Nice to hear our engine is over-engineered and well designed.

I always had the feeling it was a great engine, just from the go, the smoothness, and the sound of it. (not the exhaust)

[pete roper]

In the Aprilia design the cams have to be removed to gain access to the buckets,but you do not have to touch the cam chain.This design is sweet.

Yes. Very nice. How easy is that? I assume you just stick the piston on TDC compresh and check the clearance and then remove the cams to effect the shim swap before flinging the cams back in correctly indexed. A thousand times better than many of the usually poorly timed Japanese designs. I like it a lot!

Pete

[burty]

Yes. Very nice. How easy is that? I assume you just stick the piston on TDC compresh and check the clearance and then remove the cams to effect the shim swap before flinging the cams back in correctly indexed. A thousand times better than many of the usually poorly timed Japanese designs. I like it a lot!

Pete

It strikes me as very similar to my TRX engine, only there is only one head and two cams of course. There's no need to take chains off, just unbolt the sprockets from the cams.

[acorder]

Taking mine in for its first service this afternoon, have to leave it for them to do tomorrow, so I am assuming that this is due to checking the valve clearances. And I am finally supposed to get the tri-map update installed also, so if that makes things any better then I see good times ahead.