View Full Version : PCIII testing and dyno results
06-12-2003, 11:11 PM
I just had my 2002 RSV re-dynoed today and thought I'd test a couple of things regarding the dreaded PCIII.
My bike has 15,000 km on it and the performance mods so far are PCIII (plus a Renegade +2 chip, which also advances the timing), Evo-style 'home made' race airbox, Evo filter, 00 RSV air boot intake, Renegade Slip-on 'twin left & right' titanium muffler and a 16 tooth front sprocket.
The Aprilia Forum Ed said in a previous post that "when you plug in a PCIII and run a ZERO map, you see a loss in HP, loss in idle quality and it's harder to start." also "It should show the exact same result as running no PC3 since the zero map makes no changes....but the PC3 looses HP and drivibility due to the nature of their add-on box (signal degradation, not controlling pulse widths very accurately, and such)".
Basically he is saying PCIIIs degrade the 'signal' and decrease hp.
So when the oppertunity arose today I thought I'd test this on the dyno to see if it was true. And if it was true I was going to give the friggen thing back and demand a refund (However I didnt mention this to the dyno guy so he had no idea of my intention).
BUT....My results differed from Eds because I found NO reduction in Hp with the PC3 and zero map in place.
<strong>Here's what I did and the results!</strong>
Before my mods mentioned above the bike made SAE 110.8 hp in de-restricted, but standard form, with the standard Aprilia chip, airbox and pipe.
After all the mods and with the Renegade chip (but no PCIII) it made SAE 118.25 hp, this was tested on the dyno today.
I left the Rene chip in it and then connected the PCIII to the bike with a 'zero' map in it (no map). We re-dynoed it and got an identical hp & torque curve with the same 118.25 hp. This proves that the PCIII does NOT degrade the signal and does not effect the bike detrimentally.
I also re-installed the standard Aprilia chip to compare it to the Rene chip (without PCIII) and it did 114.8 hp.
With the Rene chip back in I then loaded the PCIII with the custom map that had been done for the bike 6 mths ago. The bike had only ridden 3500km when the map was created, now its done 15,000 km and is a bit better run in. The dyno reading we then got today, with the old custom map, showed 116.6 hp at peak revs. This was down a little from the Rene chiped 118.25 hp with no map. However they are going to give the map a tweak at the 8500+ rpm section which should give it 119+ hp.
But most importantly the PCIII with custom map DID give a large <strong>increase</strong> in hp and torque in the mid range. 4-5hp more from 3500-5000 rpm and 5-6 hp more from 6000-8000 rpm. And this is where you need it most!
Of equal importance is the hp at 'part throttle' openings. With the PC3 the hp at partial throttle openings was much higher. It also made it much more ridable, smoother, yet more responsive.
Very importantly: on the 'acceleration simulation' graphs the PCIII version of the bike is MUCH faster than without the PCIII, even though its peak hp was down in that particular comparison graph.
So my conclusion is that the PCIII is an excellent investment if your bikes air/fuel ratios are way out or you've made a number of chances to your bike that could effect fueling. It can definitely give major real world improvements to your bike.
I havn't compared it to a FP chip, but I expect that the only way the FP chip could be better than the PCIII (Properly custom mapped) is if the FP chip were somehow custom mapped to YOUR bike. However I dont know if the FP chip (or any chip for that matter) can be custom mapped like a PCIII can. Ie; with 250rpm increments and partial trottle opening settings.
I supose I have the best of both worlds with the Rene chip to advance timing and the PC3 to map fuel perfectly.
Give me some feedback oh great internet God!...But be gentle:p
Scott. New Zealand.
06-12-2003, 11:44 PM
thanks for the input scott. I do believe that the best combo is an ignition advancing chip + PC3 (if your pocket can take it). I opted to go with the EVO/FP 95301 chip, now i am waiting to break in the bike and then do a before/after mods run on the dyno. The PC3 runs at 450 euros (incl. custom mapping) around here and there are no plans for it. It is good to see it worked for you.
06-13-2003, 12:03 AM
is the renegade chip the only chip that advances the timing? does the fp chip advance timing? i liked the falco when i had a rene chip in, but i'm considering getting a custom map done at factory pro. so it seems like that would be better than the pcIII.
06-13-2003, 12:17 AM
jeff, as far as i know the FP chip does advance timing. A custom made chip would definitely be the best choice so you should go for it.
But how many of us actually have access to places like the FP shop or manley?
06-13-2003, 03:43 AM
So the Rene Chip advances the Timing and then you re-map with the PCIII....This is an answer I have searched for..
Now the question is what is the Price of the RENE chip..and can you buy this on its own..
06-13-2003, 06:36 AM
Good read for us amature tuners.
You would have to purchase a renegade chip used as they are only supplied with an exhaust. I run a PCIII and RSC chip. I hope to get it back to the dyno room once the figgin humidity drops below 110%. I'll swap EPROMS (RSC & stock) as well to look for gains. I also run the ignition amp and the Evo race box. Air, fuel & fire.
06-13-2003, 07:13 AM
Dangermouse - I have blacklisted your name on every forum. No one from Wollongong to Outer Mongolia will swap or sell you that chip.
World domination is next, my pals Pinky and the Brain are with me - Dangermouse is going down !!! :cool:
<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/grin.gif ALT=" >D"> (what is this stupid thing ?) - 0]
06-13-2003, 07:17 AM
And I though I would be safe here..... I will get more power.....and Remember you will need the Fluffy Ear Modification to aid your braking....
So Rene don't just see the chip then....well look like I'm on the Sniff.....
ed apriliaforum com
06-13-2003, 10:18 AM
was testing done on a inertia-type dyno?
those type of dynos just do not have the precision to show the slight differences....they also have a huge run-to-run error
Smoke Eater 41
06-13-2003, 10:30 AM
I wouldn't doubt Ed's expertise on this kind of thing. He really seems to know what he's talking about.
I have had great results from my PCIII with a custom map though.
06-13-2003, 11:21 AM
Scott - Thank you for the detailed testing and account. This is very helpful.
06-13-2003, 11:34 AM
Scott, thanks for the great post--very factual and informative. Your results match the results that I got comparing the FP chip to my PCIII with custom map: identical peak hp with the PCIII giving better mid-range hp.
For the PCIII haters out there, I still don't understand your hatred. Look at Scott's results:
"4-5hp more from 3500-5000 rpm and 5-6 hp more from 6000-8000 rpm. "
Without seeing his dyno charts I would guess that this is close to a 10% difference. Are you going to attribute a 10% difference to the dyno not being sufficiently accurate? This is not a "slight difference." And if the dyno he used really wasn't sufficiently accurate, who's to say that on a "more" accurate dyno the PCIII wouldn't have come out even better?
Take a look at who uses the PCIII. Let's see.....uh.....just the top three podium finishers at Daytona in the Superbike class, three of the top four in the Supersport class, the winner of the IOM Formula One class this year, the late David Jefferies (9 wins at IOM), Graves Yahama, Attack Suzuki, Erion Racing, and the Honda Factory team. How can all these racers with their big race budgets and extensive datalogging systems be using something that sucks as hard as some folks believe?
Isn't it possible that there are several ways to achieve good fueling? A Factory Pro or Renegade chip is one of them, a PCIII with custom map is another. What's the big deal about that?
I'm actually going to see Ben Bostrom next weekend, and I'll ask him what he thinks of the PCIII. Hell, maybe I'll fill him in on the theory that if he had unplugged the thing he would have regained those "lost hp" and found the juice to win at Daytona over his PCIII-crippled teammate Miguel Duhamel.:rollin: :rollin: :rollin:
06-13-2003, 12:11 PM
A PCIII will not degrade your performance in ANY way with a zero map. With a zero map, it literally does nothing. It just acts as a pass through for the electrical connections.
An older PCII, which hooked up between the sensor and the ECU (as opposed to the PCIII, which hooks up between the ECU and the injectors directly) could very well affect performance with a zero map.
Also, and this is of CRITICAL importance: when you install any PC, MAKE DAMN SURE THE GROUND WIRE IS ATTACHED DIRECTLY TO NEGATIVE TERMINAL OF THE BATTERY. DO NOT ATTACH TO THE GROUND WIRE ON THE FRAME.
In today's world of FI bikes it's hard to understand how any tuner can discount PC and Dynojet's work. Unless they are Mark @ Factory Pro's best friend ;) However, Dynojet 250s are the motorcycle industry standard and will probably be around for a long time.
As an aside, none of the factory honda's use PCs. The have special HRC factory ECUs that are 100% tuneable. Suzuki uses MoTec. Kawasaki has carbs. Doubt any factory riders use a PCIII. They stil are BY FAR the best option for 99% of street and race bikes.
06-13-2003, 12:55 PM
I am very grateful for the work done here to show us these data.
Thanks so much!
It gives me renewed faith in my assertion that a derestricted 2002 Mille can be just fine as it is.
Heck, this bike weighs 400 lbs! Even 90 BHP would be amazing.
I would assume that my EVO muffler and Aprilia chip boosted my peak to about 115, given, say, it being at 110 when stock/derestricted. It certainly made the midrange stronger and smoother.
I will leave well enough alone. This bike takes much more hardware modification than most of us are used to to make it SIGNIFICANTLY stronger.
I see this all the time. Spending and tweaking and worrying about optimizing a number when we should be focused on what our author said here -- that the midrange smoothness and pull is a much more important consideration.
What I got from this post is that ON TOP OF THE deristriction and chip/muffler addons, he saw even more gains in the midrange from the PC unit.
Whether the 10% is significant is up to each individual. In the midrange, I think it is, but I'm not convinced that I really NEED that right now, as the weight-to-power ratio is so incredible that I'm pleased with anything near what I have now.
And Ed is right! Dyno precision, run-to-run, is not that good. 5% between runs is not a crazy variation, but one which is to be expected. Day-to-day, it can even be worse, so be careful thinking Tuesday's 114 is better than Monday's 111.
Best to you all!
06-13-2003, 12:55 PM
While I'm hardly a tuner, and don't have a PC3, allow me to point out that:
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>A PCIII will not degrade your performance in ANY way with a zero map. With a zero map, it literally does nothing. It just acts as a pass through for the electrical connections.[/quote]
If you take a sensitive electrical system (say, one that is designed to be sensitive to human input and send modified <em>timing</em> type signals...) and start adding extra connections ("pass-through") it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that you will muck up the works.
No, I'm not an electrical engineer, but think about it.... pass through connections are only perfectly transparent if they add zero extra resistance to a circuit. I think Ed is on the money on this one....
That being said, I have no idea if a PC3 is worth it or not, but this <em>is</em> an interesting thread...
06-13-2003, 03:18 PM
Uhm, sorry bub, But I am an electrical (and computer) engineer. (Georgia Tech class of '99). The timing on injectors is not very hard to meet (were talking millisecond range; not nanosecond or picosecond like your computer), and wire resistance & inductance with the approx 4 feet is virtually zero.
The old PCII affected stuff like cold start and idle, because they were actually altering the sensor inputs to the ECU. The only thing the PCIII does alter the signals between the ECU and the injectors. So there are no more problems.
Now I could see problems occuring if the wires themselves are not shielded, maybe you would get some capacitive coupling or noise, but they are shielded so no worries...
The first mod to any current FI bike should be a PC, even on a stock exhaust. Course that's just my opinion.
06-13-2003, 04:47 PM
Hey Guys and Gals,
How about some dyno sheets. I would like to see a good sample of dyno runs. I welcome all of your great comments on power and how you got it, but the more charts we have to compare the better chance we have of picking the right set of changes for our own Milles. I think its obvious that max power from a basically stock Mille without engine mods is not going to set the world on fire. So the real key is what's good for the mid range. Most of the runs I've seen show dips in power at 4500, 6500, and 9500 rpm. What changes will fill these in?
06-14-2003, 08:05 AM
Here's a question...
If the PC3 is fully tuneable, ie advance and mixture, then why does one need a chip at all? Couldn't all of the tuning be done with the PC3?
06-14-2003, 09:48 AM
irdave, the pcIII is not fully tunable just for fuel air mixture not timing. If this was a pcIIIr then we probably wouldn't be having this thread.
06-14-2003, 09:52 AM
Thanks for that informative explanation. I officially stand corrected!
Still, I wonder why so many people (including smart Mille guys whose opinions I respect) are against the PC3s?
06-14-2003, 01:27 PM
Because they listen to factory pro propoganda. That's cool though, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I'm sure both approaches work well, ones just more common.
06-14-2003, 01:35 PM
I've got a 2000.5 RSVR with full Arrow sys. Evo airbox and
factory pro chip . Also adj. fuel press. regulator.
Baseline runs showed fat on bottom, going lean thru the midrange, then going rich again on the topend.
Added the PCIII . You could hear the bike clean up and run stronger as the values were changed to bring mixture into range
Gained 5hp thru the powerband which is nice. But the real difference is the driveability and improved throttle response.
Now the engine is so smooth it almost mimics an electric motor.
So yes if you've got the bucks, the best setup is a chip with altered ignition timing and PCIII with custom map.
Damon Slowpoke Baumann
06-14-2003, 03:03 PM
I would propose a custom burned chip for yoru specific bike would be better then any and all options mentioned:O)..Afterall why would you need to tune it..If its already setup..Unless you plan on spending hundreds of $$$ on future dyno sessions and retunes of your PC...So where exactly can we get custom chips burned during a dyno session is teh real question:O)
06-14-2003, 03:18 PM
Do they not offer a pc3r for the aprilia?
That would be the best solution, then you can keep updating it as you add mods...AND
and this is a big thing
Dyno work is wonderful but after you custom map from the dyno sometimes you want to fine tune the part throttle response (or the idle, which varies over temp). With the PC you have the ability to do so. Custom chip is iffy.
06-14-2003, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> Because they listen to factory pro propoganda.[/quote]
Well, one in particular who posts here, I KNOW had a very bad experience with his PC3, to the point he yanked it & replaced it with his previous chip. He lost quite a bit of horsepower with the PC3.
He's a fairly moto-smart guy, so I'm sure the problem wasn't "wrong map".
Maybe the PC3 just takes a bit more effort to get right, as opposed to "plug 'n play" chipsets?
06-14-2003, 03:41 PM
A PC3r has been in the pipeline for ages and any time I've enquired I have been told it's on its way.
I'm not holding my breath:eek:
06-20-2003, 02:12 AM
As your unregistered I can't mail you, but can you contact me at rag at pfsifadotcodotuk as I'd like to check some things about your set up.
Thanks in advance
Bill in OKC
06-20-2003, 08:37 AM
For those that like to tinker - I saw a Mille in a bike mag that had a superchips ignition advancer. I looked at the superchips site and it is a box like the PCIII but it modifies the ignition instead of the fuel mixture. Hmmm seems like both of them together and you could go insane trying to get the perfect combination.
06-20-2003, 09:25 AM
I'd like to add one comment. There is a big difference in PCIII performance with a basic map or map downloaded off of the internet and a custom map. The PCIII is a tool that can be used with fantastic results but it requires the right type of Dyno to achieve this result. It is very important to find a certified Tuning Link software professional that has been through the training provided by dynojet in Las Vegas. With the tuning link software, a perfect balance of fuel to air mixture can be achieved at each 500 rpm interval. Only then can your map be called "Custom". You can find a list of providers by visiting the power commander website.
My Plug - Anyone within riding distance to Dallas should go to Sabin Performance. Call me, Dave, at 214-351-4555 to set an appointment. Satisfaction guaranteed. Ride it and if you don't like it, we'll refund the cost of the box and the custom map.
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