Gabro's little horror show!

[Gabro]

i've received in gift an other exploded V60... enjoy the view :)



http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5213/luca01fh3.jpg


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8181/luca02ir6.jpg


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/679/luca03af2.jpg


http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1174/luca04rl7.jpg


ciao,
Gab

[sl1000]

if i have to guess.

one of the exhaust valve's of the standing cylinder broke of it's stem and caused major destruction?

if seen this twice already. once with a very tuned engine (155rw bhp), which gave way at a race on the track, and once with a normal engine, that had new open exhaust fitted, owner dit not setup co-levels again after refitting and made a 2000 mile trip across the dolomites. somewhere half way the engine "exploded".

i'm a bit curious what the reason was for this malfunction. can you give some more details?

[venturaII]

if i have to guess.

one of the exhaust valve's of the standing cylinder broke of it's stem and caused major destruction?

if seen this twice already. once with a very tuned engine (155rw bhp), which gave way at a race on the track, and once with a normal engine, that had new open exhaust fitted, owner dit not setup co-levels again after refitting and made a 2000 mile trip across the dolomites. somewhere half way the engine "exploded".

i'm a bit curious what the reason was for this malfunction. can you give some more details?

:plus:

One way or another - this is a motor that swallowed a valve. Snapped stem, broken retainer, popped keeper - same result.

Was this a stock motor? How many miles? Was there ever a valve adjustment done? It'd be interesting to see if there was still a shim under the bucket....or if it was an aftermarket cam/springs, what were the specs?

[sl1000]

the thing that puzzles me, is that always the '00-'03 engines break this way, and that it is always the exhaustvalve of the back (standing) cylinder.

my dealer had 3 engines broken this way the last couple of years and as far as he told me, it was always because guys changed the exhaust on their own, without resyncing the co, etc. My dealer told me that the reason for this is because the back cylinder does not get any cooling from the air, whilest riding, and the excess heat buildup in the standing cylinder, caused by the lean mixture causes the stem to fail.

i'm curious if that really is the case or not.

[Scary]

:eek:
Hate to see a Rotax like that, makes me feel sick !......... blurry but............

[venturaII]

the thing that puzzles me, is that always the '00-'03 engines break this way, and that it is always the exhaustvalve of the back (standing) cylinder.

my dealer had 3 engines broken this way the last couple of years and as far as he told me, it was always because guys changed the exhaust on their own, without resyncing the co, etc. My dealer told me that the reason for this is because the back cylinder does not get any cooling from the air, whilest riding, and the excess heat buildup in the standing cylinder, caused by the lean mixture causes the stem to fail.

i'm curious if that really is the case or not.

Well, the rear cylinder running hot due to "no air flow" is BS - these are liquid cooled motors, not air cooled Ducatis or Harleys. Airflow matters at the radiators, not at the heads.

As far as the lean mixture bit goes, the trim pots are only used with FactoryPro chips - they are disabled with the OEM chip. Additionally, they do not control mixture across the entire operating range of the motor, but instead, they operate similar to a pilot jet does with a carb'ed bike - the trim pots only adjust mixture within the idle-to-1/8 throttle settings. The fixed map controls mixture at all other throttle settings. At least, that's what Marc Salvisberg told me...

Sounds like, in the effort to sound knowledgable, the dealer just made up a bunch of crap to explain away something that they don't have an answer for.

[sl1000]

Well, the rear cylinder running hot due to "no air flow" is BS - these are liquid cooled motors, not air cooled Ducatis or Harleys. Airflow matters at the radiators, not at the heads.

As far as the lean mixture bit goes, the trim pots are only used with FactoryPro chips - they are disabled with the OEM chip. Additionally, they do not control mixture across the entire operating range of the motor, but instead, they operate similar to a pilot jet does with a carb'ed bike - the trim pots only adjust mixture within the idle-to-1/8 throttle settings. The fixed map controls mixture at all other throttle settings. At least, that's what Marc Salvisberg told me...

Sounds like, in the effort to sound knowledgable, the dealer just made up a bunch of crap to explain away something that they don't have an answer for.

ehm, it always sounded to me like BS to :bangwall:
but I never new the trimpots were only for the "idle-range", I alway thought it was some kind off base offset range added or subtracted from the settings in the map. so that something new i've learned :P.

It would be nice to find the real answer to this puzzle though

[venturaII]

but I never new the trimpots were only for the "idle-range", I alway thought it was some kind off base offset range added or subtracted from the settings in the map. so that something new i've learned :P.



Well, it surprised me a bit too, but the guy is supposed to know what he's talking about, so....:burnout:

Besides, the rear cylinder would have to be pretty lean to cause the stems to fail from heat...I'd think you'd see signs of excess heat on the piston crown or the plug before a valve would fail.... That is, unless the valves have some sort of inherent flaw in them.

[kzmille]

Though not easily proven the most likely cause of exhaust valve failure on these engines is from contact with the piston when over revved. If the contact bends the valve just slightly it won't be long before the stem breaks.

[Gabro]

that is not the first blown motor i open and i've not understudwhat appens yet.

we have 2 opportunities:
1-> the valve break at the stam: BATABUUUUM!
or
2-> the valve train goes out of timing (turned cam lobes or a failed chain tensioner or valve springs going crazy due to an overrev), the valves touch the pistons and BATABUUUUM!

the stock clearance between valves and piston is very big, the timing error must be enormous to cause a contact.

pressed cams are not the only cause: i've found in this condition magnesium engines whit cast camshaft too.

we have to look for other causes!

[Gabro]

the thing that puzzles me, is that always the '00-'03 engines break this way, and that it is always the exhaustvalve of the back (standing) cylinder.

that failure is on the front cylinder... i've found motors with broken intake valves :confused:


my dealer had 3 engines broken this way the last couple of years and as far as he told me, it was always because guys changed the exhaust on their own, without resyncing the co, etc. My dealer told me that the reason for this is because the back cylinder does not get any cooling from the air, whilest riding, and the excess heat buildup in the standing cylinder, caused by the lean mixture causes the stem to fail.


CO setting work only at very little throttle openings (low load)
As other already told, is a water cooled engine.. the only heat difference between the 2 cylinders are about the V60 timing and differnet exhaust tubes arrangment. minor stuff :)

PS all the eprom made after '01 HAVE THE TRIM POTS ACTIVATED, US versions too. The only eproms with fixed trim value are the A63 ('00 rsv), P08 ('00 to '02 falco) and the aftermarket aprilia eprom '00 titanium and the SL-carbon.
Anyway, to activate the trimmer only need to change some bits in the map... nothing special ;)

ciao,
Gab

[AmareAprilia]

That's some gift !

[Scary]

Gabro....a long time ago I noticed on the back of a 'rear' cylinders inlet valve,(only the clutch/right side valve), an excess build-up of some sort, on further searching I found the one-way slipper valve was totally distroyed on the inside & probably had been for quite a while.
I thought at the time because that's the side of the vaccum port for it in the TB bore that the slippers diapham rubber dust that ends up in the diapham area after a bit of mileage, under deceleration was being sucked up like a vaccum cleaner pasted the now broken one-way valve into the intake port & ending up melting onto the back of the closest intake valve head & stem as it entered the heated combustion chamber.

Just food for thought mate for those "rear" cylinder failures, & as you would see more engines than I would, so you maybe able to keep an eye out for it to see if it's actually an issue with others or not.

Real shame about that engine in your pics.

[Gabro]

i replace the easy to fail anti return valve on the clutch line with one of these:

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6546/valvolinalu5.jpg

the slippery funcion is a little more intrusuve while riding due to the bigger vacoum needed to be actuated but it's really heavy duty.

[brad black]

gab

when i had that rsv-r on the dyno i played with the trim pots. one was originally around 45 degrees to the lean side of centre, the other 80 degrees rich. i tried both full lean and then both full rich - all consecutive runs without engine off - and got the graph below. certainly made a noticeable difference all thru the rpm range.

given you've been into the software, is this not what should happen?

it's an aprilia evo 2-1 eprom, 8796495.

[venturaII]

gab

when i had that rsv-r on the dyno i played with the trim pots. one was originally around 45 degrees to the lean side of centre, the other 80 degrees rich. i tried both full lean and then both full rich - all consecutive runs without engine off - and got the graph below. certainly made a noticeable difference all thru the rpm range.




It's not rpms but load that the trim pots affect. Or more precisely, throttle position. Think of the trim pots the same way you would a pilot circuit on a carburetor - they only affect idle - 1/8 throttle or so....

[deefred]

It's not rpms but load that the trim pots affect. Or more precisely, throttle position. Think of the trim pots the same way you would a pilot circuit on a carburetor - they only affect idle - 1/8 throttle or so....

So you think he produced that graph only using about 1/8 throttle:confused:

The plot thickens.......

[venturaII]

So you think he produced that graph only using about 1/8 throttle:confused:

The plot thickens.......


Even just changing the pilot jet on a carb will have a small effect on the overall mixture, but it's not driving the whole air:fuel ratio at WOT. If you're changing the trim pots to compensate for incorrect mixture at WOT, then you're curing the symptom, not the problem (base map).

[deefred]

But the graph clearly shows a huge impact on the A/F ratio right across the whole rev range.

I guess that graph was done at WOT with only the trim pots changed for each run.

[brad black]

I guess that graph was done at WOT with only the trim pots changed for each run.

yes. consecutive runs.

[Gabro]

brad,
i'm sending you via mail a modified version of my eprom, could you write and put it on the dyno to repeat the test with that??

that eprom should not have the pots enabled above 4000rpm.

let us know!
Gab

[deefred]

brad,
i'm sending you via mail a modified version of my eprom, could you write and put it on the dyno to repeat the test with that??

that eprom should not have the pots enabled above 4000rpm.

let us know!
Gab

Hi Gabro,
How about a stock european eprom, are the trimp pots enabled above 4000rpm?

What is eprom no. 8796495 which brad used?

Have always read that the trimpots are for idle adjustment etc, but if they can effect the whole range that would be big news:eek:

[Gabro]

Hi Gabro,
How about a stock european eprom, are the trimp pots enabled above 4000rpm?



it has to be like that. but Bradexperience tell us that is not and confirm some rumoros about...
Let wait Brad new test before any more conclusion :)

ciao,
Gab

[MauriceOz]

Where the valve end can end up. Replaced this engine and got bike back on road. 2003 RSV.

Gabro, I am using the SBK Replica chip 01-02-03 and PC111 in my Falco what will it do?

Maurice

[Gabro]

I am using the SBK Replica chip 01-02-03 and PC111 in my Falco what will it do?

if well tuned, it's one of the best comboes on Falco!

abuot your broken engine:
was it over-revving when the valve broke?

[MauriceOz]

if well tuned, it's one of the best comboes on Falco!

abuot your broken engine:
was it over-revving when the valve broke?

Glad to know I kept the best chip.

As far as the engine goes it was in a dealers waiting to be sold and a guy took it for a test ride as far as I know and it was returned in a non running state. I bought it from the dealer at a salvage rate because I had a spare engine from the donor bike for my Falco project and could afford to fix it. I just dropped the broken one out and took the necessary bits to get the spare running.

Maurice

[brad black]

brad,
i'm sending you via mail a modified version of my eprom, could you write and put it on the dyno to repeat the test with that??

that eprom should not have the pots enabled above 4000rpm.

let us know!
Gab

gab

that bike is hopefully coming back for some more work so i'll do my best to get it done. i could even try it in another bike anyway.

[Gabro]

Brad, did had opportunity to test the eprom?!?!

[conte max]

Hi Gab,
I know how much is frustrating to have our Italian forum out of order....but...please...let the U.S. guys free from posting your terribles and freightening pictures !!!!
Show them our sweet girls...sunny days....lovely spaghetti and beautiful Rome... :banana::banana:

[conte max]

i've received in gift an other exploded V60... enjoy the view :)



http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5213/luca01fh3.jpg


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8181/luca02ir6.jpg


http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/679/luca03af2.jpg


http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1174/luca04rl7.jpg


ciao,
Gab

Hi Gab,
please let the U.S. guys away from your freightening pix !!!!!! Show them our lovely girls....lovely spaghetti and lovely Rome...:banana::banana:

[Gabro]

Hi Max!

nice to see you here too :banana:

[motomike]

Hi Gab,
please let the U.S. guys away from your freightening pix !!!!!! Show them our lovely girls....lovely spaghetti and lovely Rome...:banana::banana:

Yes!!! Yes!!! Show us the lovely Italian girls!!!

& quit scarying us w/ the dead Rotax's. RIP....

Mike:cheers:

[brad black]

Brad, did had opportunity to test the eprom?!?!

gab

not yet. we don't even have any of the denso ecu bikes kicking around work to run down to the dyno with. i will do it first chance i get, even if it goes in a tuono.

[SoulDaddy]

........

:worship:

[motomike]

........

:worship:

And a fine contribution it is....:plus:

Mike:cheers:

[evandewan]

All this time, Souldaddy keeps his little gem hidden from his friends! What's her name, little Egypt???

[SoulDaddy]

Little? Naw, there's not too much that's little going on there. :lover::lover::lover:



Sophia Loren at about 19 ... does it get much better? Another one of Italy's finest products, imho.

[norbertthenark]

In fact it does get better.

Norbert